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flyman
08-12-2008, 09:44 AM
Has anyone heard anything new? How is the boy doing? I know that had to be just an awful experience for him :eek: . I think kids and people alone are more susceptible to this type of event. Glad it didn't turn out any worse than it did. If it had been a full grown bear, may have been a different story.:frown:

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/aug/12/black-bear-attacks-boy-in-smokies-father-also/

Bran
08-12-2008, 10:24 AM
I've heard so far he was released from the medical center last night with puncture wounds and scratches. Apparently he was playing in the creek there near the Rainbow Falls trail head when the bear attacked unprovoked??

mtnman2888
08-12-2008, 01:08 PM
Good to hear everything is ok, that's definitely not something you want to see happen especially to a young one. Stories like this are the ones that make my fiancee freak out, got to make sure she doesn't find out.........

Vern
08-12-2008, 01:10 PM
I feel for the father. Having a son myself that I am just now letting fish out of sight of me. it is a scary feeling when when you come out of the stream and don't see your child for a few minutes. I have fished these streams for years and only have spotted a few bears and only one bear acted aggressive toward me. Even though you know the chances are very slim for a bear attack, you worry about your children. Gaintfish is 16 and thinks he is all powerful and knowing, (HORMONES) will he be able to know how to handle a bear confrontation? I have to have the faith that he does, but being a dad I still worry even I know he is only 50 yards in front of me spooking the fish before I get to them.

jeffnles1
08-12-2008, 03:20 PM
Vern,
Like you, I have one of those "10' tall and bullet-proof" teenagers at home. My boy is 13 and barely 100lbs soaking wet, but believes he can wrestle a grizzly to the ground with one hand while casting his 5wt to rising trout with the other. Like any father (or I should say most fathers) I'd do my best to step in between Daniel and a bear (or any harm that would be coming his way).

I hope the boy is OK. Too bad this happened.

Jeff

TroutAssassin
08-13-2008, 01:01 PM
I was watching the midnight news after the olympics and they interviewed the dad and his son that got attacked. From what I understand, they were obviously moving towards the bear because the kid told the reporter that his dad told him, "Dont worry, it wont hurt you". Its a shame that it happened. But from the interview, you could tell that they were not telling the whole story about what provoked it. I dont believe a 55 pound year old cub is going to randomly attack a kid its own size for food or out of aggression. Because of what the kid said during the interview I think obviously a dumb decision was made by the parent. I was driving around the loop earlier this week when a bear was trying to cross the road but was being circled and blocked by a bunch of tourists with cameras. The bear would lunge and do short bluff charges at the people, the people would run away for about 30 seconds and then come encircle the bear again. They kept trapping him about 3 times before they finally got some sense and got back in their cars to let him cross. This may sound harsh but its hard for me to feel sorry for these people if they end up getting attacked because they are obviously aggravating an animal that can easily kill them. I guess they think because he is chomping his jaws and wheezing and snorting that he has pollen in his nose or something.

Bran
08-13-2008, 01:10 PM
You're right, it's hard to help those that don't exhibit common sense! The bear numbers have got to be good though because I only spent my second week in TN the 1st of August and I encountered one yearling male about est. 60-70 pounds above Elkmont on Monday evening and then saw a sow with a cub at the loop road at Cades Cove on Thursday. That's pretty tall odds for only being out once every six months I thought.
The little male just wondered off the other way after I saw him, he was only 30 yards from me when I made eye contact. My wife got a couple of pics of him headed the other way, she started to step off after him and I stopped her. I think people in general need more education about bear encounters and how to handle themselves in that situation, even so you would still have those that wouldn't listen, no doubt.

TroutAssassin
08-13-2008, 01:30 PM
Bran, They estimate that there are between 1500-1800 bears within the Great smoky mountains park boundries. There is an estimated 2 or more bears per square mile in the park. Cherokee has a extremely healty population as well. If im not mistaken, the GSMNP has the largest bear population in North America. Thats alot of bears in a small area. Tourists need to be educated better, granted you will still have the occasional idiots like you mentioned.

canerod
08-13-2008, 02:00 PM
Yes for the size of the GSNP there are a lot of bears, but many areas have more. The Adirondack state park is TEN times larger in area than GSNP and the estimate is around 5000 bears. I would think that Baxter state park in Maine would be larger yet.

sammcdonald
08-13-2008, 03:37 PM
the bear in question was weighed at UT...86 pounds.
the same day in the visitor center a "guest" said he had gotten to with 5 feet of a bear in roaring fork....i advised him of park regs and he said he didn't care...he was gonna continue to get close to bears since thats why he came to the park....what an idiot.

rgp759
08-13-2008, 05:55 PM
If the bear was provoked, there is no wonder it "attacked", it was just doing what bears do. Too many people obviously do not have any idea what a black bear can do, even a small one.

Black bears are predators, and in the GSMNP, they are the top of the food chain. Many people simply do not understand the mentality and the insticts of the bears. For too long, the black bear has been portrayed as a "cuddly" animal, when nothing is further from the truth. Black bears can be dangerous animals. Actually, when comparing a black bear's potential to attack versus the grizzly's, I'll go up against the grizzly anytime. The grizzly bear usually only attacks when it is provoked or is protecting its cubs, food or territory. While the black bear also displays these habits, there is one major difference in the two animals; the grizzly attack is almost always defensive, while if a black bear attacks, it has decided that you are food. One of the ways to "combat" a grizzly attack is to drop and curl up into a fetal position, and try not to make a sound. Generally, if the bear gets no response, it will quit and go off on its own business. A black bear, on the other hand, will continue to attack and/or maul, as it is going to EAT you.

When you see a black bear in the wild, obviously, you want to try to avoid provoking or startling the animal. However, if you do find yourself in a situation where you are confronted, there are a few simple things to do to protect yourself.

Do NOT turn and run. This action provokes the "prey" response in the bear, and it will chase you. Instead, slowly and steadily back away from the bear.
As you are backing away, do NOT make eye contact. Eye contact is a threatening action to the bear. Watch it, and at the same time, look around for a large stick to pick up as a defensive weapon. Bang the stick against trees, rocks or whatever, but not the ground. Hitting it against the ground simulates an aggressive bear behavior.
Make noise...yell, scream or whatever. The animal will not like the noise, and may retreat.
If you have a jacket or a backpack on, take it off and toss it off to the side, yet towards the bear, like on a 45į angle. The animal will most likely go after the offering, giving you more time to back away to a safe distance. I know it may be a sacrilege, but if you have a fish in your vest, that may be the best thing to toss off to the side of the bear.Also, just as another note, pepper spray, while fairly effective as a deterrent on a grizzly bear, is not nearly as effective on a black bear. They just react differently to the stuff.

Overall, stay alert to your surroundings, and respect that you are invading the bear's home.

Bob

ChemEAngler
08-13-2008, 10:28 PM
the bear in question was weighed at UT...86 pounds.
the same day in the visitor center a "guest" said he had gotten to with 5 feet of a bear in roaring fork....i advised him of park regs and he said he didn't care...he was gonna continue to get close to bears since thats why he came to the park....what an idiot.

Sam,
I too have had similar experiences with people who have no sense. However, I have lived in Knoxville all my life and made hundreds of trips to the Smokies fishing, camping, etc and have never seen a bear. Too many people who visit the Smokies just don't understand that they are out in nature and a whole new set of rules apply. Having a son, I feel for the boy, but it appears that a stupid decision was made by the father if he knew the bear was there and didn't take the correct action. I am just waiting for one of these idiots to try bring a lawsuit against the NPS for not protecting them from these bears.

Travis

ZachMatthews
08-13-2008, 11:21 PM
Guys -

I had a friend finishing up at UT Vet School during the last bear attack - the bear she helped autopsy wasn't even the bear involved in the attack, they determined.

This always makes me so angry and sad. That 86 pound bear wasn't much bigger than my Labrador. The kid had just been chowing down on a bucket of fried chicken and supposedly had it on his shirt. Like Trout Assassin, I am completely skeptical that you could just come upon a bear like that kid described. Where on Road Prong trail could you suddenly just pop up in arm's reach of a bear? You'd have to climb one of the rockfalls, which this kid wasn't doing.

My alternate scenario goes something like this: Jr. sees a bear, probably wings a stick or a rock at it to see if it will roar. The bear stops and rears up, so Jr. moseys over to "pet" it while Dad watches. The bear, having been confronted by a belligerent child about its own size, and being a young, inexperienced bear, does all it knows to do and scratches the kid less than most dogs could do in two bites. The pictures of the kid are on the net now. With all due respect, I have personally been mauled much worse by a dog when I was about the kid's age.

In consequence, the bear is killed, I guess. How did they get it to UT to weigh? I don't think they tranquilized it.

Bill Bryson calls these people "tuorons." It isn't a nice term but it's accurate, and the bears have to pay the price. I'd really like to see the Park Service apply a little pointed questioning to the father rather than doing its best to reassure people that bears aren't that dangerous. This was clearly a human-created situation.

Zach

Speckleman5
08-14-2008, 12:30 AM
No way would I ever take my chances with a grizzly over a black bear..period.....

I think too many people think they know what to do in these situations, I have had more bear encounters this year in the park than I have had in my life combined and only once did a bear even act like it wanted to hang around....They are just as scared of us.....just don't let your kids poke and prod at wildlife like all these idiots do in cades cove and cataloochee and everything would be just fine... If it is absolutely necessary to harass wildlife go to the zoo. I know if someone came in my house smelling like food and shaking a stick at me I'd probably do my best to maul them.....people just don't understand how Wild this part of the world really is....it is not a zoo....

ijsouth
08-14-2008, 08:24 AM
On a somewhat related note...last week, a 12 foot gator attacked a kid who was swimming in a pond near here. The kid was able to get away, but the gator got his arm. Afterwards, Wildlife and Fisheries was able to kill it, and they immediately slit it open and got the arm out, but doctors were unable to reattach it. It was the first gator attack I could remember around here in years, but it wasn't all that surprising; people who lived around that pond called it "Old Joe", and had probably been feeding it marshmallows and other junk for years. Every gator I've ever seen in the wild has taken off when it saw me, but once they lose that fear of man, they become very dangerous. I would imagine that it is even more so with a bear; a gator, after all, is cold-blooded, and can go for long stretches without eating, but a bear needs to eat all the time.

What can you say? People can be very stupid.

BlueRaiderFan
08-14-2008, 08:26 AM
If you are on a tight stream/river, a bear can come out of no where. I would be hard pressed to spot a bear before it got to me on most of the waters in the Smokies. Lesson learned: Watch your kids like a hawk and be prepared. Again, this is why I carry a huge knife when I go to the park. It may look silly, but if attacked, I have a much better chance than if not. That assumes of course that I see the bear in time to get to my knife, which may not be the case. Up above Elkmont or Treemont, with the water rushing, it would be hard to hear a bear coming in time. Not certain about the area this kid was in.

Kytroutbum
08-14-2008, 09:27 AM
A better solution is to pack a canister of bear spray and learn HOW TO USE IT. It has a range of 40 feet and suspenses in the air creating a fog. I've had the wind carry it back on me after showing my wife how to use the can, so I can attest to its potency!(:>)

Other areas may have more bear, but if they are hunted they have some fear of man. In the Smokies we could be dealing with a problem someone else started. I remember camping at Elkmont just behind the old Cabins, my neighbor kept food on his picnic table at night. We had to chase off a bear twice till his wife packed up camp.

ijsouth- I think I heard of two attacks last spring or year before. One I know was a snorkeler at a spring. I had a large gator come out of nowhere and grab a bass I was fighting near Naples. I've really gained respect for them. I read that some guys actually wade into the canals around the Tamiami to get at Snook under the bridges.
Kytroutbum
Randall Sale

ijsouth
08-14-2008, 10:14 AM
Kytroutbum:

There seem to be a lot more "incidents" in Florida than here in Louisiana; I went to FSU, and I used to wade fish around Tallahassee...the gators there were more aggressive. Florida is such a fast-growing state, and there is a lot more human/gator interaction. When I'm fishing, I actually like to see a good sized gator - they tend to keep the snakes and gar in check.

As for bears...I've yet to see one in the park. However, a few years ago, we ended up in the Smokies after evacuating for Katrina. We were on the Foothills Parkway in the Cosby section, and we saw a momma and two cubs crossing the road...pretty neat. We try to be very careful when we park the car - we try to avoid letting any food items out of the car.

lauxier
08-14-2008, 11:08 AM
last time i came to the park i was traveling on the gravel part of the tremont road--a young black bear ran out in front of my truck--i hit the brakes --the bear went on across the road down to the stream and stopped--i drove on--about 100 yards up the road, 2 girls were walking on the side of the road--i stopped and told them a bear was not far down the road by the creek--both smiled--wanted to know if it was a big one--started digging out cameras and ran down the road--excited---i stopped to warn the girls--not to tell them what they were missing--i do not think there is any "living with bears" as long as bear ignorant city folks and country folks too, come to the park solely to make contact with a bear--they have fondled one too many black teddy bears in gatlinburg and if that's not enough,the tourons identify the park's wild bears with the admirable,humanistic,chinese made stuffed animals, not to mention,billboard bears,smiling thanking you for coming bears,neon bears,chocolate bears etc.---it,once again,proves the power of imagry in selling tourism no matter how absurd it is..

sammcdonald
08-14-2008, 12:03 PM
the incicent occured at rainbow falls not road prong....it was less than 300 yards from the trail head. i just came back from roaring fork and there is a ranger suv and a large park horse trailer at the rainbow trailhead (trail is open)...so maybe they got the wrong bear and are looking for another bear. or maybe they all just wanna hang out at rainbow.

Brian Griffing
08-14-2008, 12:09 PM
The kid had just been chowing down on a bucket of fried chicken and supposedly had it on his shirt. Like Trout Assassin, I am completely skeptical that you could just come upon a bear like that kid described. Where on Road Prong trail could you suddenly just pop up in arm's reach of a bear? Zach

While I have personally witnessed people in the Park, especially in Cades Cove, acting stupid around bears, I am willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt. For this bear to attack a kid, be run off by the father, come back after the kid, and then to act agressively toward the rangers that killed him; this is truly exceptional behavior. While bad behavior on the part of the humans may have played a part, this was not normal behavior for a bear. There was something wrong with that little guy. He was a yearling, weighing 30 lbs less than my lab. My guess is that he left his mother too early, or something happened to his mother, but either way, he was in a desperate situation.
As far as suprising a bear goes, that can be done. Especially young ones. I have accidentally and intentionally (I was younger, dumber, faster, and more invincible) snuck up on bears. So unless I see something that conclusively contradicts their story, I am willing to take these people at their word, and be thankful that the little boy is okay.

BlueRaiderFan
08-14-2008, 12:27 PM
A better solution is to pack a canister of bear spray and learn HOW TO USE IT. It has a range of 40 feet and suspenses in the air creating a fog. I've had the wind carry it back on me after showing my wife how to use the can, so I can attest to its potency!(:>)

Other areas may have more bear, but if they are hunted they have some fear of man. In the Smokies we could be dealing with a problem someone else started. I remember camping at Elkmont just behind the old Cabins, my neighbor kept food on his picnic table at night. We had to chase off a bear twice till his wife packed up camp.

ijsouth- I think I heard of two attacks last spring or year before. One I know was a snorkeler at a spring. I had a large gator come out of nowhere and grab a bass I was fighting near Naples. I've really gained respect for them. I read that some guys actually wade into the canals around the Tamiami to get at Snook under the bridges.
Kytroutbum
Randall Sale


I vote for both. If I can use the spray fine, but if he jumps me out of nowhere, I can get to my knife within a reeasonable amount of time. I may need quite a few stiches by the time I get to it, but...But, yeah, the pepper spray is the best alternative. I just know how bad my hearing is. I don't hear much when I'm in or near the water. I try to keep an eye out, but bears are quiet. Dang rascals...

WNCFLY
08-14-2008, 03:03 PM
Read this story of the women who was killed in the park a few years back. It was quite gruesome. Her husband had to watch the two bears eat her for over three hours while help was sought....

Gruesome bear attack! http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18815






Here is another list of all the fatal bear attacks in America and Canada. Its very surprising how many are black bears
America's fatal bear attacks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade

BlueRaiderFan
08-14-2008, 05:16 PM
Read this story of the women who was killed in the park a few years back. It was quite gruesome. Her husband had to watch the two bears eat her for over three hours while help was sought....

Gruesome bear attack! http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18815






Here is another list of all the fatal bear attacks in America and Canada. Its very surprising how many are black bears
America's fatal bear attacks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade


The constitution says we have the right to "Keep and bare arms...but not in the park.":rolleyes: Yeah, I don't see how it could be read any other way, but apparently they have. My other favorite is getting into trouble for having a night stick, baton etc in your car...I'm like: IT'S AN ARM! (Weapon). I'm allowed to have it...Duh! At least I'm not asking for a friggin' M60 or something..oh wait...machine guns are reserved for use by criminals because they don't care what the Supreme Court says.:rolleyes:

DarrinG
08-15-2008, 08:11 AM
If you are on a tight stream/river, a bear can come out of no where. I would be hard pressed to spot a bear before it got to me on most of the waters in the Smokies.

I've experienced this as well.

Two years ago I was fishing a small, wild, mountain stream. I was in a section of the stream with rushing, fast water. All around, lots of rhododendron and mtn laurel thickets. The sound of the rushing water was loud and the thickets made for very limited visibility. And then I can get "tunnel vision" on the creek and watching the water for likely trout lies and not pay as much attention to my surroundings as I should.
And this is in bear country.

I rounded a bend in the stream and suddenly, very suddenly, a black bear, of which I would guesstimate it's weight around 200lbs, comes off the bank from my right, into the creek, about 25 yards in front of me. The wind was in my face so I knew the bear had not winded me or knew I was there. I immediately yelled at the bear loud "Get out of here!". The bear stops mid-stride and looks at me. I yell again "GET OUT OF HERE, GO ON...GIT!", and also raise my hands and wave my arms. The bear stands still and lowers it's head and just stares at me. Now I'm feeling really uncomfortable. All bears I've encountered in the past, whether while fishing, bowhunting deer, camping or whatever, have retreated hastily once they saw me, heard me or winded me...but not this one. I again yelled at the bear and took a few steps backward to try to get out of the water and my feet on dry ground so I could slowly retreat. After a few steps, the bear slowly crossed the creek and went up the opposite bank and stopped again and turned to stare at me for about 20 seconds, head still lowered and ears laid back, in what looked to me like a very aggressive posture. I kept easing backwards and finally the bear turned and continued upstream along the creek bank, out of sight. Once I was out of sight of the bear, I turned and headed out of that area for the day. The encounter made me uneasy about fishing that area the rest of that particular day. As I was leaving, driving down the Forest Service road in my truck, not too far away from where I last saw the bear, I ran into a man and woman out for a hike and stopped to warn them of the bear in the area. I was thankful they took my advice and turned around and headed the opposite direction.

Be careful out there. Of the bears I've encountered in the woods, this was the only one that made me uncomfortable, and it was upon me before I knew it. Too close for comfort and it's actions after it saw me really made me uneasy. I was in a situation where I could not see it coming and could not hear it coming until it was almost too late. Only someone in a stream or along it (think fly fisherman!) with the noise, cover, etc, would usually be in that position!

BlueRaiderFan
08-15-2008, 08:27 AM
Yeah, that's always been my experience with bears. Heck, I don't even hear them when I'm on a quiet trail! I've jumped a couple just walking on a trail. I take a whistle with me now and blow it every couple hundered meters on trails. I want them to know I'm coming.

jzimmerman
08-15-2008, 08:37 AM
Yeah I usually sing a good country music song on the way out. The way I see it, I probably scare everything out of the woods. I appologize if I have ran any of you out before. :biggrin:

Bran
08-15-2008, 10:36 AM
It still sound like GSMNP has more bears per sq. mile if the other one mentioned above is 10 times bigger and has 5000 bears, the Smokies are boasting 1800 bears as opposed to 5 or 600 30 years ago when they started keeping track of it. I'm in total agreement with Mr. Lamb's article. If Glenda had been carrying a side arm she may still be with us. I know the bears have the right to be there also, but just think for a few minutes about the Park service telling you that you don't have the right to bear arms.

buzzmcmanus
08-15-2008, 12:34 PM
...........

pineman19
08-15-2008, 01:07 PM
What scares me about allowing guns in the Park is people who are not experienced handgun users or hunters. To be honest, I would rather take my chances with a bear. I have seen a fair amount of bears while hiking or fishing in the Smokies and so far they have minded their business while I have minded mine. I figure my chances of getting killed are much higher on the nation's roadways. Far more people are killed in car accidents and other means, but when a bear attacks someone it gets a lot more publicity. I'm willing to take the risk that comes with being in remote outdoors areas. Much of my work is done outdoors, and in the forest. I deal with snakes, and other hazards on a weekly basis. To me, it is a part of my work and personal life and I wouldn't have it any other way. The risk of getting seriously hurt in a remote area while alone is higher than being attacked by a bear, rattler, etc., but it's all in how people look at things.

Neal

tennswede
08-15-2008, 01:33 PM
The Park service put out reminders that the National Park is a wild and dangerous environment. When are people going to understand that it is not an amusement park. I think the "park" in the name give it an illusion of being a park like any city park around the country. While I do feel for people getting mauled and hurt but who will ever think about the animals. It's kind of the same, when people are building cottages next door to wilderness areas and then complain that the authorities don't do anything. Who made them build where they build. I'm sick and tired of allt this shielding from reality and expect the government to take care of you. If people don't want to get hurt stay home in front of the tv or something. In other words I completely disagree with the above referenced article.

Now, lets' go fishing.

jzimmerman
08-15-2008, 01:51 PM
I realize that there are more stupid people than not but, what if you could carry only if you had a conceal and carry permit. That would prevent a lot of your average trigger happy people from carrying. That way you at least know that the people that are carrying have had proper training, and clean back ground. As far as worried about criminals carrying guns they are going to with or with not the parks approval. I just know that I would like to carry mine when I am in the backcountry more for defense from the two legged animal that the four.

Link to Tennessee requirements for conceal and carry.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2064619_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html (http://www.ehow.com/how_2064619_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html)

If that were the case I would have no problems with "hand guns" in the park. I still don't believe that there is any place for shotguns or rifles. It really stinks that because some people canít conduct them selves properly with responsibilities society as a whole gets restricted, but I guess that is just life.

Jswitow
08-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Folks its not the guns........... Its the crazies holding them. The shame of it is that most of the people killed in the National Parks by other people are killed with guns. Maybe these deranged souls go there because the pickings are easy; typically you are alone or nearly so when hiking, they know the chances are very slim that you are unarmed. I say if they were pretty sure you were armed rather than unarmed, they would likely look elsewhere.

On the subject of the bear; a child covered in the scent of fried chicken in the park is bait. It is a shame it happened and that the animal had to be killed. I haven't heard the interview, but if the father truly told the little boy to move closer to bear that is a shame, for the boy and the bear. Both were reacting as they should have; the boy obeying and the bear reacting with defensive aggression. I have seen several as well over the years, they usually scoot off. Only when they smell food have they ever moved closer. Too bad the bear didn't know to go for the dad.
Enjoy the weekend,
John

BlueRaiderFan
08-15-2008, 05:31 PM
I shouldn't need a permit. I have a constitutional right to keep and bare arms. Criminals and crazies don't care about a permit.

sammcdonald
08-15-2008, 09:11 PM
you have the right to bear ( you can bare arms) arms, but not in areas prohibited. i can't imagine the carnage if every idiot that wants to take a gun into the park has access. 74 years and only killings have come from gun toting persons.........geez, you nra people are really a mess

sammcdonald
08-15-2008, 09:25 PM
actually no killings in this park..no guns...no killings

jeffnles1
08-16-2008, 12:21 AM
I have a concealed carry permit and I do carry while fishing, just not in the park. In the years I've carried, I've only put my hand on the firearm once and that was when I was nearly attacked by a pit bull at a local lake. The dog stopped when I was yelling at it. I would have shot it had it come closer. I'm not really worried about bears but mean dogs and two legged predators do concern me, especially when I'm fishing rather remote areas alone.

I hope and pray I never have a need to use a firearm on another person. I am well trained and have served as a range officer and instructor.

There are enough pot fields and meth labs around that a person can stumble upon one quite by accident. The meth cookers don't really care that you're just a fisherman. I do believe every person has a right and obligation to protect themselves. I couldn't use deadly force over money or property, but to protect myself or my family, I could and would.

I don't have a strong opinion if firearms should be allowed in the park. If they were allowed, I'd probably carry. Since they are not, I do not carry inside park boundaries. It's really that simple. I'm a law abiding person and the law states I cannot carry a firearm inside the park, therefore, I do not.

Jeff

Brian Griffing
08-16-2008, 10:01 AM
actually no killings in this park..no guns...no killings
There was a man stabbed to death following an argument in Abrams Creek Campground two years ago.

Buzz,
I like your posts and typically agree with your statements, but your reasoning for not allowing people to carry in the Park could just as easily be applied to society as a whole. There are idiots everywhere that shouldn't carry a gun anywhere. Still, they have the right to do so.

Gun laws only effect law-abiding citizens. The law should give us the freedom to act responsibly, and then hammer those who do not.

I do not carry a firearm in the Park, but only because it is the law. And personally, I feel a little exposed and vulnerable when not armed. It's not bears, lions, or bigfeet that I am worried about. It's the "two-legged varmint" that someone posted about earlier that concerns me. When I am by myself, its not that big of a deal. But when I take my kids swimming at the Abrams Creek campground, I do look at some shady characters sideways, and wish that I had access to a boomstick. In the absence of a law enforcement presence, witnesses, or bystanders, a man must be able to protect himself and his family.

caught 108
08-16-2008, 10:18 AM
Im a Proud member of the N.R.A and have a concealed carry permit.People like you and that remark are every ANTI-GUN NUTS WET DREAM if it wasnt for the NRA none of us would be allowed to own a firearm.Guns dont kill people;People kill People a gun will not shoot if you dont pull the trigger. caught 108

mtnman2888
08-16-2008, 12:42 PM
I agree with what most people have said, the law says you can not carry a gun in the park so don't do it. I can only imagine that if everyone was allowed to carry a gun alot of innocent bears would be shot for no reason.

Caught108,

Whether you agree or not with sams' NRA statement, there is no need to turn this into an arguement with such a vile statement, this is a family board.

sammcdonald
08-16-2008, 04:38 PM
just for the record, a second bear incident occured yesterday at the sinks....and it was totally provoked by a human.

jeffnles1
08-16-2008, 09:46 PM
I agree with what most people have said, the law says you can not carry a gun in the park so don't do it. I can only imagine that if everyone was allowed to carry a gun alot of innocent bears would be shot for no reason.

Caught108,

Whether you agree or not with sams' NRA statement, there is no need to turn this into an arguement with such a vile statement, this is a family board.

Craig,
I agree this is not the place, but Sam started it with this comment "geez, you nra people are really a mess".

The issue at hand here is bear attacks and people provoking the attack and the fact a young child was harmed in the process. If the father had a firearm would it have helped? Maybe and maybe not. We'll never know.

The fact of the matter is the law of the land prohibits firearms inside the park so this is really a moot point until such time the law would change. Anyone outside of law enforcement who carries a firearm capable of firing live ammunition inside the park (there are rules about transporting firearms through the park but they cannot be loaded, ammo and firearm have to be separate, firearm dismantled, etc.) would be breaking the law and if caught, they can and will be charged with a crime.

I'd like to suggest everyone cool the rhetoric and "stand down" a bit regardless of which side of the firearms debate one may be on.

Jeff

BlueRaiderFan
08-16-2008, 09:58 PM
There was a man stabbed to death following an argument in Abrams Creek Campground two years ago.

Buzz,
I like your posts and typically agree with your statements, but your reasoning for not allowing people to carry in the Park could just as easily be applied to society as a whole. There are idiots everywhere that shouldn't carry a gun anywhere. Still, they have the right to do so.

Gun laws only effect law-abiding citizens. The law should give us the freedom to act responsibly, and then hammer those who do not.

I do not carry a firearm in the Park, but only because it is the law. And personally, I feel a little exposed and vulnerable when not armed. It's not bears, lions, or bigfeet that I am worried about. It's the "two-legged varmint" that someone posted about earlier that concerns me. When I am by myself, its not that big of a deal. But when I take my kids swimming at the Abrams Creek campground, I do look at some shady characters sideways, and wish that I had access to a boomstick. In the absence of a law enforcement presence, witnesses, or bystanders, a man must be able to protect himself and his family.

Yeah and you can bet that those same degenerates have no problem with toting in a pistol if they decide to. When will people understand: LAW ABIDING citizens are not dangerous and have the right to "bear" arms. It's the delenquents (that will stab you, beat you, carry a gun and shoot you anyway) that you have to worry about and they don't care about gun laws. They carry whenever and wherever they feel like. It may be "agianst the law" to carry guns in the park, but that law is unconstitutional.

BlueRaiderFan
08-16-2008, 10:03 PM
you have the right to bear ( you can bare arms) arms, but not in areas prohibited. i can't imagine the carnage if every idiot that wants to take a gun into the park has access. 74 years and only killings have come from gun toting persons.........geez, you nra people are really a mess

A person that will shoot in an offensive manner (eg not in self defense), will carry a gun or knife and use it regardless of the law. Degenerates will kill people with or without a gun and they don't obey the laws. As mentioned before, stabbings have occured in the park, most likely beatings as well. If your brain is bent, you will kill, gun or no gun. I would like to be the guy with a gun that can do something about it.

DarrinG
08-17-2008, 02:49 PM
Guns don't kill people.....Husband's that come home early kill people.

{just a stab at some humor here}
:biggrin:

TroutAssassin
08-17-2008, 05:14 PM
WOW! This thread really blew up while ive been away:biggrin:

kytroutman
08-17-2008, 07:27 PM
I have fished the park for more than 35 years. I have seen my share of bears during that time but would stop fishing in the park in an instance if firearms were permitted. It's not a NRA issue but I would not want the increased risk of injury or death when people start seeing black bears behind every tree, rock and stream and feel they must discharge a firearm to "protect" themselves.

nvr2L8
08-17-2008, 08:41 PM
Interesting. I have also fished the park for about 35 years and have never seen a bear while I was fishing. Flushed one out while I was hiking one day a few years back but never while fishing.

BlueRaiderFan
08-17-2008, 10:00 PM
Well, to each his own. Personally I prefer to keep my 2nd ammendment rights, but that's just me. I've seen several bears, but never an agressive one. Too bad others haven't been so lucky.

bigpopper
08-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Wow what a thread. Just saw the post about "bear attack" and took a look. This thing is 5 pages. I'm not going to take any sides here but, I will say this.
I'm glad the kid is alive, however it does sound like the father was not the "sharpest hook in the box" after hearing the interviews of the kid and father. I do know this much, I have been hiking and driving around the GSMNP for the last 7 years, while there on vacation, Iv'e been to remote waterfalls, this entire time not ONE SINGLE BEAR, thats great. I prefer not have a confrontation with one. I try to follow the simple "STAY ALIVE" rules co-hikers and friends have told me to keep them away while out on the trails. This is what I ALWAYS keep in mind when out on the trails, rivers, streams, and worlds oceans, I AM NOT THE TOP PREDATOR THERE. A simple rule to remember. Weather it be Bears on the trails and streams, or Sharks when fishing in the oceans I am in their backyard. Always be aware of your surroundings, Do NOT PROVOKE THE ANIMAL, DO NOT HAVE A MESH BAG OF CUT BAIT ATTACHED TO YOUR WASIT, and PLEASE USE SOME COMMON SENSE. It's sad when people get hurt because of an animal attack, but it's really hard to feel sorry for them when it happens due to their own stupidity.
Great fishing to all.
Mark <::><

PeteCz
08-18-2008, 10:40 AM
Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize half of them are even stupider!
- George CarlinI have no problem with the constitutional right to bear arms, but I believe that guns in the Park would be a really, really bad idea. Think about how stupid people are right now with no personal protection. If they were allowed to carry guns, a percentage of them would be even stupider than they are now, thinking they could get even closer to the bears and then pop one of them if the bear turned aggressive.

And surely, some yahoo would shoot one that was running away and then claim that it was acting aggressively....

ChemEAngler
08-18-2008, 12:12 PM
Kind of off on a tangent here, but I hiked to Charlie's Bunion on Saturday and had my first bear experience. Shortly after starting the trail a couple was walking hurriedly towards us and told us to not go any farther because of bears in the trail. So my buddy and I hung out where we were at for awhile and were talking loudly trying to make as much noise as possible. After some period passed, we slowly started our hike again. About 200' past where we stopped we could hear lots of activity down the hillside below us. We continued to move on still talking loudly with our pepper spray out and ready. We could hear the bears moving down the hill away from the trail, so we continued on. That was my first experience in many many trips to the Smokies hiking and camping. I think too many tourists don't know how to respond when they encounter bears. Approaching a bear to get close to it is just as insane as the couple who turned and ran when the saw the bears in the trail. I think people should be required to sit through an educational video in order to receive a pass to allow them to enter the park. Give that pass a validity date of like a year, that way locals don't have to go through that every time they want to visit. That may deter some idiots, but you can't make everything foolproof....

Travis

Brian Griffing
08-18-2008, 03:11 PM
If they were allowed to carry guns, a percentage of them would be even stupider than they are now, thinking they could get even closer to the bears and then pop one of them if the bear turned aggressive.
And surely, some yahoo would shoot one that was running away and then claim that it was acting aggressively....

Pete,
if that were the case, then there would be a lot of bears wounded by handguns and pepper sprayed in the National Forests, WMA's, and private lands every year.
I don't think we should make laws based on the premise that "some people are stupid". We have to treat people like responsible, law-abiding citizens until they prove otherwise. And then, strip'em naked, tie them backwards to a donkey, and send them off blindfolded into the wilderness. Or make them put on orange jumpsiuts and pick up trash on the side of the road on Saturdays. Either way.

Speckleman5
08-18-2008, 04:21 PM
That is very true. People that are not from around here do not understand how many places there are to go camping, hiking, fishing, etc. on public lands. Here in NC we have our game lands, Wildlife, whatever, people go camping, hiking, etc. just as they do in the park and the wildlife concentration is just as abundant. You don't read about people shooting anything just to be shooting it there. I have been several places in the park where I would much rather have had a pistol than not....If you get away from the campgrounds and main roads deep in the back country it just isn't the same. Chances are that even if you don't see a bear, one has probably watched you go right by...Several times I have been fishing a tight little creek no wider than half a lane of traffic and there something was standing, I couldn't hear it coming just as it could not have heard me...I have no problem with people carrying a gun in the park, as long as they go through some sort of training to have a permit for it. As for an instructional video that one could watch before being allowed in I think that is ridiculous. The park was established for us to use it.

PeteCz
08-18-2008, 07:15 PM
if that were the case, then there would be a lot of bears wounded by handguns and pepper sprayed in the National Forests, WMA's, and private lands every year.
I don't think we should make laws based on the premise that "some people are stupid". We have to treat people like responsible, law-abiding citizens until they prove otherwise. And then, strip'em naked, tie them backwards to a donkey, and send them off blindfolded into the wilderness. Or make them put on orange jumpsiuts and pick up trash on the side of the road on Saturdays. Either way.

Brian, I agree with you. In reality, not just anyone can qualify for a handgun carry permit without the proper training/background. So you are right, it probably wouldn't change the bear/humans situation in the Park.


Unfortunately, our lawmakers do make laws based on the "stupid people" premise. Why else would we have laws protecting us from ourselves (ie. mandatory seat belts and tobacco taxes) and why can people sue McDonalds because they spill Hot Coffee on themselves. It seems that personal responsibility has gone out the window in the last 20 years in favor of blaming someone else (and trying to collect on it...)


http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk100/PeteCz21/icon_twocents.gif

BlueRaiderFan
08-18-2008, 07:32 PM
*Sigh*

Oh well, it's just a constitutional right...No big deal.

Let me ask you that oppose this: What if the government decides that we are "too stupid" to have private property and all property should be for public use? Will that happen? No. But, the point is that bearing arms is a constitutional right. Do you really think that people are going to go nuts and start shooting every thing that moves?! One or two people in 20 years will shoot a bear. Big whoop! I'd rather that happen that to have to worry about a bear that is approaching me or near me. You can't ignore the constitution because YOU think people are stupid. It's arrogant and we shouldn't give up our rights so easily. Good grief. Next I'll need a permit to make a public speech...Oh wait, I already do...Oh well, hopefully I won't live long enough to see this country go completely down the tubes. Yep, big brother knows best.:rolleyes:

nvr2L8
08-18-2008, 08:17 PM
Unfortunately, we proved that we were too stupid to have private property in the Smokies and literally stripped it of all useable lumber. It wasn't until the government stepped in and made this private land public (i.e., Great Smoky Mountains National Park) that we got some bit of sensibility back into taking care of this treasured resource. If the government had not stepped in, well read "Last Train to Elkmont" and look at the pictures of the mountains stripped bare and the streams we enjoy fishing nearly ruined. In this case, I'm glad our government took these beautiful mountains out of the private hands of some very stupid and greedy people and saved them for us to enjoy.

Speckleman5
08-18-2008, 08:54 PM
It wasn't just the park that was stripped down because of logging, it was the entire area.

BlueRaiderFan
08-18-2008, 09:52 PM
Unfortunately, we proved that we were too stupid to have private property in the Smokies and literally stripped it of all useable lumber. It wasn't until the government stepped in and made this private land public (i.e., Great Smoky Mountains National Park) that we got some bit of sensibility back into taking care of this treasured resource. If the government had not stepped in, well read "Last Train to Elkmont" and look at the pictures of the mountains stripped bare and the streams we enjoy fishing nearly ruined. In this case, I'm glad our government took these beautiful mountains out of the private hands of some very stupid and greedy people and saved them for us to enjoy.


Yes, in certain instances, it is beneficial to use immenent domain. There were no parks for the first 150 years that this country existed, so they had to use immenent domain to correct a mistake. It's a rare exception to private property. I personally think it's being carried to far these days. However, it has nothing to do with the fact that allowing people to exercise their "right" to bear arms is the right thing to do. People aren't going to suddenly go nuts and start shooting up the mountains. It's ridiculous. How far are we going to let this go? Once the government has decided that we are "too stupid" to actually exercise our rights, we lose them permenantly. The National Park system is a rare exception and a bad analogy.

BlueRaiderFan
08-18-2008, 09:58 PM
Disclaimer:

I'm raising heck, but I'm not upset with any one as an individual, just the points that people are making. I think this country is going in the wrong direction on constitutional rights.

BlueRaiderFan
08-18-2008, 10:01 PM
Seriously, does any one here really believe that people are going to start shooting the tops off the mountains if they could carry in the park?

nvr2L8
08-18-2008, 10:11 PM
Hows about we get back to fly fishing.

Troutman
08-18-2008, 10:18 PM
I remember the good ole days when this was a "fly fishing" forum.

Dukee
08-18-2008, 10:23 PM
I had a Bear take my lunch away from me once in Chimneytops Campground about 1984 I think. Seen several over the years, never had a problem, just give them plenty of space. I feel better protected with pepper spray than a gun for bears, dogs or other vermin. I shoot a lot, both competively and for sport and can say, with a fair degree of knowledge, that to carry a large enough weapon to reliably protect yourself from a bear would not be feasible while fishing or hiking for the average person. Of course if hiking or fishing with a partner, you could shoot the other guy in the leg as you run away.........:biggrin:

jeffnles1
08-18-2008, 10:55 PM
I've thought a lot about this thread. Befoe I say anything more, I must offer a disclaimer. I am a competitive target shooter and have been so for over 30 years. Up until a few years ago, I even held a national record in one of the disciplines in which I compete. I've served as a firearms instructor and range officer. I have a carry permit and I do know how to use a firearm for both self defense and for competitive target shooting. I thank the Lord that I've never had to fire a weapon in defense or at another human being for any reason. I am a member of the NRA and NMLRA. There are few in this country that are stronger gun rights supporters than I.

With that said, I have no problem with the laws in the parks the way they are now. I cannot carry a firearm in an airport or in a court house or in a bar. That's the law and as a citizen of the USA, I am obligated to obey the laws.

Attacks by animals are exceedingly rare. Of the millions of people who visit the park each year, how many animal attacks actually happen? My guess is far more people are injured in automobile accidents inside the park in a year than will ever be attacked by a bear. I have no evidence upon which to back that opinion but I would be shocked if it were not the case.

A firearm that one would carry concealed would do little to stop an angry bear in its tracks anyway. The loud bang would be more effective. The typical 9mm, 357, 380, 22 type firearm most would carry would most likely kill a bear with a well placed shot but it would be quite the luck shot to hit it in an area with such a low power weapon to actually stop it in its tracks.

I have little to no fear of hiking and fishing in the park or anywhere else for that matter when it comes to animal attacks. The odds are overwhelmingly in my favor in that regard.

Two legged predators are a different matter. The only time I've ever even put a hand on my revolver was when I was nearly attacked by a pit bull mix dog at a local lake. The owner had it off its leash and the dog charged me. The owner got it under control when it was about 20' from me. Yes, I would have shot it had it gotten close enough to be a serious threat. However, a mean dog is a far different critter than a wild bear or other wild animal.

So, even though I am a strong supporter of the right to carry a firearm and the right to carry concealed with the approprite permits, I have no problem with the limits we have in the park. Does that make me a traitor to my fellow firearms owners? I don't think so. I think it makes me a citizen who is committed to obeying the laws of our land.

I do not agree with all the laws and some of them are quite silly. However, I am obligated to obey them. If the law pertaining to firearms in the park were to change, I may carry one, but most likely, I would not. The park is a beautiful and special place.

Everyone has a right to their opinion and everyone has a right to express that opinion with his/her elected officials. They are the only ones who can enact or change laws.

Until such time the laws change, I will not carry a firearm inside park boundaries. I believe that is all we can and should do.

It is quite unfortunate that boy was hurt. It is unfortunate that his father did not seem to take proper precautions. Stupidity and ignorance comes with a high price tag and sometimes we have to pay that price for our own actions.

That's all I really wanted to say. I agree with the others, we should get back to fishing.

Jeff S.

mora521
08-19-2008, 02:36 AM
I feel that a person that carries a firearm should have complete and utter familiarity with the weapon,and be able to hit what they are aiming at.Sadly, most folks will never shoot or handle a weapon enough to do more than score the bare minimum they need to "qualify" for thier CCW permit.So I do not think that carry in the park is a good idea,because most folks are not able hit what they are aiming at(at the range no stress involved),much less have the mindset to employ a handgun in a life threatening situation.That includes the majority of CCW holders.In the first three years I owned the latest pistol I bought for concealed carry(GLOCK 19)I fired 15000 rounds through it,and it blows that I can't carry it in the park,but I would feel much more threatened by most people being freaked out by movement in the bush and having them fire at an unidentified target,than I am by any bear or snake,or even 2 legged miscreants.I feel that just as the majority of parents are not qualified to have offspring,most folks are not qualified to carry firearms.

caught 108
08-19-2008, 09:12 AM
BlueRaiderFan I agree we must stand together to protect our second amendment right thats why I Support the N.R.A. I have my carry permit dont carry in the Park but would if it were legal.Ive carried from south Alabama to Wisconsin I Deer Hunt alot Thankfully Ive never had to shoot Anyone or Anything in Self Defence.But it is nice to know my .40 cal. Glock is there just in case.Maybe We can Hook up one of these days and go Trout Fishing. Sincerly Caught 108

BlueRaiderFan
08-19-2008, 02:02 PM
I agree. They are rights and they shouldn't be infringed upon. I would be glad to go fishing with you anytime (and others on here for that matter). I've discovered the Caney Fork and don't get up that way much, but you never know. When you start making exceptions to a constitutional right, it isn't long before you lose it completely. The demise will be slow, but by the time I'm an old man, we will have lost a lot of freedom the way everything is going. You don't roll back the constitution because of the way you feel about a subject. Anyway, thanks for the invite. We'll go sometime.

pineman19
08-19-2008, 03:24 PM
BRF, I have been gone in thee Smokies since Sat. morning, and I get back and your still preaching about constitutional rights! WE GET IT MAN! Give it a rest and stop preaching and complaining. We had to listen to enuff of your whining when you didn't catch a fish at Elkmont several weeks ago. If the Smokies aren't for you and your not willing to put in the time and sweat to catch trout on a fly then give the rest of us a break.

Sincerely,

Neal

BlueRaiderFan
08-19-2008, 03:35 PM
BRF, I have been gone in thee Smokies since Sat. morning, and I get back and your still preaching about constitutional rights! WE GET IT MAN! Give it a rest and stop preaching and complaining. We had to listen to enuff of your whining when you didn't catch a fish at Elkmont several weeks ago. If the Smokies aren't for you and your not willing to put in the time and sweat to catch trout on a fly then give the rest of us a break.

Sincerely,

Neal

Wow, that was uncalled for. First of all, I was responding to a post directed at me. E.g, it was addressed to me (eg it had MY NAME on it). Second of all, most of the complaining I was doing a few weeks ago was in jest and should have been taken that way. I don't appreciate your tone with me, since I don't know you. I get the time in that I can for a guy that is almost forty years old and has health issues that I can't do anything about (Yes, at forty, you can have some major health issues, believe it or not). If you can't intereact with me nicely, then please don't respond to my post. There are just too many jerks on these boards for me. I think I'm going to have to stop posting at all. That was ridiculous. If you wouldn't say it to my face, please don't say it on here.

BlueRaiderFan
08-19-2008, 03:40 PM
Also, what does my post about the 2nd ammenment have to do with me not catching trout? What a jerk. Is there an "ignore" feature on this board?

pineman19
08-19-2008, 03:47 PM
You can say whatever you like BRF. Maybe, I got a little personal, but I don't need read numerous posts about the 2nd amendment. Most of us have been hearing this stuff in other arenas for most of our natural lives. These types of topics always draw the most post, while many about fishing get little or nn attention. I am in my late 40's as well, and have had some serious health issues over the last few yrs., but I keep that stuff off the board. I only post about flyfishing and it has been my mistake to engage in this kind of mess.

Neal

BlueRaiderFan
08-19-2008, 03:52 PM
You can say whatever you like BRF. Maybe, I got a little personal, but I don't need read numerous posts about the 2nd amendment. Most of us have been hearing this stuff in other arenas for most of our natural lives. These types of topics always draw the most post, while many about fishing get little or nn attention. I am in my late 40's as well, and have had some serious health issues over the last few yrs., but I keep that stuff off the board. I only post about flyfishing and it has been my mistake to engage in this kind of mess.

Neal


Guy, don't read the thread. There are plenty of threads to choose from. Also, you didn't get a "little personal," you ran your trap to someoone that doesn't know you from Adam. Stay out of my business if you can't interact like an adult. If the moderator doesn't like my posts, they can delete them. You see where this goes once you get personal? Do us both a favor and just don't address me in any way. I have a father and he's been dead for a few years now. If a person addresses a post directly to me (Like caought108 did), I will respond to that post, thank you very much. You call me a whiner, THEN you call me lazy! Good night...

BlueRaiderFan
08-19-2008, 03:55 PM
I have no problem with the constitutional right to bear arms, but I believe that guns in the Park would be a really, really bad idea. Think about how stupid people are right now with no personal protection. If they were allowed to carry guns, a percentage of them would be even stupider than they are now, thinking they could get even closer to the bears and then pop one of them if the bear turned aggressive.

And surely, some yahoo would shoot one that was running away and then claim that it was acting aggressively....


Hey, Pete, just so you know, I wasn't trying to be a jerk in my earlier post. Looking back now, I can see how it looked kind of bad, so I apologize.

pineman19
08-19-2008, 03:57 PM
Yes Sir BRF

BlueRaiderFan
08-19-2008, 03:59 PM
Yeah, now that you've called me lazy and a whiner, I'm the jerk? Nice.

Paula Begley
08-19-2008, 04:09 PM
That's enough. This thread is locked.

Paula