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rainshaker
08-21-2008, 09:08 PM
"Most of this week TVA has been spilling extremely warm water over the top of Apalachia Dam on the Hiwassee River, potentially endangering the trout fishery. A TVA spokesman says the breakdown of one of two generators forced them to spill water over the top of the dam. He says however that the generator was repaired Wednesday afternoon and operation is back to normal."

also stated in the article: "...one of our supervisors is really concerned about what the warm water temperatures and low oxygen could do to the fish."

...I don't think it requires a supervisor to figure that one out :)

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_133655.asp

waterwolf
08-21-2008, 10:43 PM
I agree and it is actions like this that prove to me that TVA has lost touch with the environmental impacts of some of their actions over the last 3 years.

The Elk River is about dead due to their generating regimes.

The Holston Trout fishery just got whacked again as temps have climbed into the middle 70's.

Now the Hiwassee takes a bath, because they are too ignorant to NOT SPILL 85 degree water down a coldwater fishery. Why that seemed like a good idea is beyond me, but would it have killed them to scale back generation for a few days while they got things fixed in order to save the fishery.

golfballs03
08-22-2008, 11:41 AM
So was the lake so full that they had to dump it over the top while they were repairing the generator or was the water level below way too low? I don't get why they had to dump any

tennswede
08-22-2008, 11:47 AM
I don't want this to turn in to an argument but we do need to realize that TVA doesn't exist to cater to our need to fish, raft, recreate etc. This is a side effect for our benefit. TVA is federal agency which has a mandate to establish flood control and to generate hydroelectric power.

I do know some people want to put politics in to this and I do regret that some streams were destroyed in the process of flood control and cheap power. The era of cheap electric is over and we are lucky who can enjoy trout fishing on some of these rivers. A few of these rivers wouldn't support a single trout if it wasn't for TVA. Clinch, and Holston prime examples.

It is currently very popular to trash anything TVA or government does, but put in to a reality perspective, they have a mandate and a rate of return to produce. If TVA mainly catered to a few trout fisherman and some rafters they would have to shut down.

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 12:29 PM
So was the lake so full that they had to dump it over the top while they were repairing the generator or was the water level below way too low? I don't get why they had to dump any

Heck no the lake is not too full, not even close. The reason they dumped is to make up for the one unit that went offline. Rather then just suck up the loss of outflow for a couple of days they idiotically spilled 88 degree water down the river system.

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 12:52 PM
I don't want this to turn in to an argument but we do need to realize that TVA doesn't exist to cater to our need to fish, raft, recreate etc. This is a side effect for our benefit. TVA is federal agency which has a mandate to establish flood control and to generate hydroelectric power.

This is incorrect to a degree, TVA was established under a much different mission then how they operate now. They used to be focused on the environmental and recreational aspects of their operations in conjunction with flood control and hydro to help fund their organization. In 1993 everything changed when the heads of TVA changed and they became super focused on Hydro $$$ and some other stuff.

It has only gotten worse. 3 years ago new legislation was passed which requires them to have 25,000 continuous CFS coming into Chattanooga. This completely derailed any other concerns they had, other then sellng off power to make more $$$. Now The Elk River has been virtually destroyed and the Holston below Cherokee as well as the French Broad below Douglas are taking a hit.

TVA used to be super focused on the ecology of their system. Hence weir dams, hub baffles, and oxygen infusion systems. All of these are found on Cherokee, Norris, and South Holston. All were designed to maintain min. flows and increase DO. There have been zero new projects of these types in over 10 years and none in the future are planned.



I do know some people want to put politics in to this and I do regret that some streams were destroyed in the process of flood control and cheap power. The era of cheap electric is over and we are lucky who can enjoy trout fishing on some of these rivers. A few of these rivers wouldn't support a single trout if it wasn't for TVA. Clinch, and Holston prime examples.


Yes the era of cheap power is over, as highlighted by the front page of the paper yesterday, a 27% increase in 2008 alone. What we should be asking as consumers and customers of TVA is how they can turn a deaf ear on the demise of fisheries and ecologies and jack up their rates. In other words what are all of us sportsmen and non-sportsmen getting in return.

A few of these rivers wouldn't support a single trout if it wasn't for TVA. Clinch, and Holston prime examples.


Try South Holston, Watauga, Ft. Patrick Henry, and Hiwasee as well. What many fail to notice or care about is that entire native populations were wiped out because of the damming of these river systems. TVA created coldwater fisheries and they used to think it was their responsibility to manage them to the best of their potential.

Hans I know you aren't from here and may not be aware of this, but do some research on the Little T and the atrocity that TVA committed by damming a perfectly healthy river system for nothing more then residential development. One of the great tragedies in this area and one which TVA and their supporters should be embarrassed to have on their record.

Embrace TVA all you like, and there was a time when they did a lot of great things for the system, but in the last few years they have totally lost focus and our fisheries are suffering because of their greed.

You are right that a handful of us and some paddlers have an uphill battle but if we want to maintain the quality of our fisheries we have to speak out about this stuff and do so now. We cannot just rollover or we will get steamrolled and our fisheries will suffer the brunt of the weight.

tennswede
08-22-2008, 01:28 PM
I was waiting for that one, Yes I am an outsider but it is irrelevant. I know all about the Tellico project and I can even put Hungary on a map.

Anyway, What you fail to understand is the fact that before TVA these rivers were not trout fisheries. If we relly want to be stewards of the environment we should breach the dams and everything will revert to warm water fisheries. Your points are moot because you are facing an artificially created fishery. I love the trout fishing as much as you do and yes I think the Tellico project was a work of politicians but still, the rivers we are talking about were not trout rives except Little T.

kytroutman
08-22-2008, 02:02 PM
You can't have electricity at some of the lowest rates in the nation without generating schedules. Without the cheap electricity, you don't have the majority of the business existing in the South or looking to locate in the South. TVA was the selling point for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota and KIA to locate their manufacturing plants in the South. Without those plants, a dismal employment picture would be even worse. Also, consider the fact that the generation schedule is due to the increased demand for electricity in other areas. How much generation could be reduced if every house in East TN would turn the A/C off for a while and just open the windows?

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 02:56 PM
I was waiting for that one, Yes I am an outsider but it is irrelevant. I know all about the Tellico project and I can even put Hungary on a map.

Anyway, What you fail to understand is the fact that before TVA these rivers were not trout fisheries. If we relly want to be stewards of the environment we should breach the dams and everything will revert to warm water fisheries. Your points are moot because you are facing an artificially created fishery. I love the trout fishing as much as you do and yes I think the Tellico project was a work of politicians but still, the rivers we are talking about were not trout rives except Little T.

I was not making light of the fact you were from somewhere else merely probing to see if you were familiar with the project that is all.

I clearly said your second statement in my post, you must have missed it. For me and what I like to do, it would be fine with me if there wasn't another trout stocked in our rivers and they were converted back to warmwater fishers. People like me can only imagine what it would be like to have that much, that size, and that many more super rich smallmouth centric fisheries.

I think the Tellico project was a work of politicians but still, the rivers we are talking about were not trout rives except Little T.
Hans this statement is completely false. The Little Tennessee was not a "trout river", it was another tailwater just like the Clinch, Holston, Hiwasee, Caney Fork, Elk, Duck, South Holston, Watauga, Ft Patrick Henry, and Cumberland. No difference except TVA slapped a dam up which doesn't even have generators, has no real means of flood control, and was only erected to created hundreds of miles of shoreline for development. The Little T was another artificially created trout stream from a TVA dam.

tennswede
08-22-2008, 02:56 PM
Kytroutman,

exactly what I try to say. As much as I love the tailwater trout fishery and I do not agree with the Tellico project, but other than that I'm fine with it. TVA has to operate in order to produce power for the ever increasing demand. Yes, I'm an outsider and I have added to the demand, but like it or not if no one wanted to live here we will have to revert to the old ways. I'm not saying that is necessarily bad but you won't have the amenities and luxuries we have now. My in-laws are from eastern KY and they still live there. They still don't have the jobs and infrstructure that we have. I know some of those people like it that way but they sure have a hard time to make a living. Tobaccoo and "that other crop" is just not doing it for them anymore.

Development and such is a two edged sword but I get a little tired of so called experts who think that they have all the answers as long as everyone go along with them. Enjoy what we got and try to see the positive in TVA. I know the rate increase is going to hurt business and residents a lot but TVA has a budget and mandate to follow.

I'm sorry but I can't just sit idle when people on the one hand says, I just don't understand when someone is complaining about a coldwater fishery being destroyed and then says that TVA damaged a bunch of warmwater fisheries. Don't forget that little t was not a natural fishery either. All trout in this part of the world is exotics. Brown, Rainbow, Lake, and you name it.

Brook Trout is not even a trout. It's a char and I seriously doubt Little T supported many of those in it's lower reaches where Tellico is nowadays.

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 02:59 PM
You can't have electricity at some of the lowest rates in the nation without generating schedules. Without the cheap electricity, you don't have the majority of the business existing in the South or looking to locate in the South. TVA was the selling point for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota and KIA to locate their manufacturing plants in the South. Without those plants, a dismal employment picture would be even worse. Also, consider the fact that the generation schedule is due to the increased demand for electricity in other areas. How much generation could be reduced if every house in East TN would turn the A/C off for a while and just open the windows?


Good gracious where to begin:biggrin:

How does TVA power affect the KIA plant which is located in SW Georgia on the Chattahochee river, which is not fed by any TVA river system nor controlled by a TVA dam? Same goes for Mercedes, BMW, and Toyota.

The increased generation is due to the mandate for 25,000 cfs downstream. Go to TVA's website, pick up the phone, it is all out there to be read and learned about and it is not about electricity.

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 03:03 PM
Brook Trout is not even a trout. It's a char and I seriously doubt Little T supported many of those in it's lower reaches where Tellico is nowadays.

The Tellico river and the Little T are completely different rivers.

Little T- or the Little Tennessee River and Tellico not the same thing.

Little T tailwater coldwater fishery is gone, Tellico river all but a short stretch is freestone and still very much viable.

ANd BTW I am being species specific, if all fisheries are being adversly affected by a min CFS rule then something needs to be adjusted to not be detrimental.

You all are very incorrect with your assessment that power demand is the sole reason for the increase in flow regimes. Please do some research on why things changed in 2005 and come back to the discussion.

Here: http://www.tva.gov/river/lakeinfo/systemwide.htm

Only the last wording says a word about hydro power. The rest especially min flow to keep river beds dry is politically spun. The problem this year and last is how unbelievably dry it has been and how there is little if any runoff. In a normal year none of this would be a problem, but two years back to back is having a negative impact on the resource.

Paula Begley
08-22-2008, 03:08 PM
This can be a hot button issue and I just wanted to thank you all for remaining civil with this topic. Really, thanks.

Paula

tennswede
08-22-2008, 03:13 PM
Just to clarify, when I refer to Tellico in this discussion I don't mean Tellico River, I mean the dam for the purpose of this discussion. The dam which created Tellico Lake in 1979.

kytroutman
08-22-2008, 05:11 PM
Waterwolf, TVA controls the major power grid in the South. They don't have to be the direct seller of the power. They also sell power through AEP and the RECC programs in the Southeast as well as control the real estate in a number of large acreage industrial parks. That was the basis of my comments.

PeteCz
08-22-2008, 05:21 PM
Guys, you are both bringing up some very good points. So much so that I decided to do some research and try to learn something new today (since work is killing me...).

Here is the initial premise for TVA:
Established by the U.S. Congress in 1933 as a critical component of President Franklin Roosevelt's Depression-era "New Deal," the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) was initially created primarily to manage the Tennessee River's navigation and flood control problems, to encourage reforestation and proper land use, and to foster agricultural and industrial development. In time, the TVA grew to become the nation's largest public power provider serving more than 8 million customers over an 80,000-square mile region covering the Tennessee Valley. This area includes most of Tennessee and portions of Mississippi, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia. Following decades of operations as a massive bureaucracy, the TVA has dramatically streamlined itself in recent years in order to boost its competitiveness in preparation for the anticipated onset of deregulation.

In 1959 legislation was passed that changed TVA from a Government funded agency to a self-funding agency and thus making it more profit-centric.

Through time it has evolved, and now is based on three tenets: Energy, Environmental Stewardship and Economic Development and trying to balance the demands of all three at the same time.

Recently, in preparation for impending energy deregulation, TVA has taken on several internal projects to reduce its operating costs and overhead.

Here are a few links for anyone else interested:
http://www.answers.com/topic/tennessee-valley-authority
http://www.tva.gov/abouttva/pdf/tva_glance.pdf
http://www.tva.gov/environment/policy.htm

The reality is that while we may want to protect the tailwaters for the betterment of coldwater fishing (which did not exist before TVA to the extent that it does now), there are a multitude of forces at play which will always trump fishing. Namely Energy and Economic Development. TVA supplies cheap power to the area to the benefit of new companies moving to the area and creating jobs. Yes our rates have gone up, but we are still one of the cheapest areas in the country to start a new business for a number of reasons (TVA being one of them). They have tried to do better at Environmental Stewardship but there are a lot of competing factions even in that area.

As for the specifics of the release of water on the Hiwassee, since they are spilling and not generating, its also important to remember that their job is to keep the waterways passable. With the 2 year drought we have had that is becoming harder and harder to accomplish. Compound that with problems at the dam and it may have been their only option. They have demonstrated that they are interested in helping with coldwater Fishery maintenance (to a certain point), but it will not win out over all the other competing factors.

Waterwolf posted a good link as well regarding the minimum flows. Here is the net of what is happening, due to the drought conditions (from that link):
If the total volume of water flowing into Chickamauga Reservoir is less than needed to meet system-wide flow requirements, additional water must be released from upstream reservoirs to augment the natural inflows (a function of rainfall and runoff), resulting in some drawdown of these projects. How much water is released depends on the time period and the total volume of water in storage in 10 tributary reservoirs: Blue Ridge, Chatuge, Cherokee, Douglas, Fontana, Nottely, Hiwassee, Norris, South Holston, and Watauga.

Are they perfect? Of course not. Should we stay on top of what they are doing? Absolutely. I think the biggest problem right now is Mother Nature. We need a break from this drought.

kytroutman
08-22-2008, 05:26 PM
Pete, you missed one website (www.tvaed.com) which is the Tennessee Valley Authority Economic Development site. TVA is involved in much more than just power generation in the region.

PeteCz
08-22-2008, 05:48 PM
Pete, you missed one website (www.tvaed.com (http://www.tvaed.com)) which is the Tennessee Valley Authority Economic Development site. TVA is involved in much more than just power generation in the region.

I guess I should apologize for the long-winded post. Buried in there somewhere is the fact that TVA stands for three principles: Energy, Environmental Stewardship and Economic Development.

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 07:04 PM
You all should also keep in mind:

Clinch River enthusiasts lobbied and got the Weir Dam project approved which stabilized minimum flows, they also lobbied for the implementation of hub baffles to increase D.O.

South Holston Enthusiasts lobbied to get the weir dam built.

Hiwasee enthusiasts lobbied to have recreational releases on the weekends.

Clinch enthusiasts lobbied to get recreational releases.

Elk River enthusiasts lobbied to get a comprehensive study done of why the fishery is in peril.

Holston River/Cherokee Lake enthusiasts lobbied to increase D.O. above and below the dam by implementing an oxygen injection system.

These are just a few of the success stories that come to my pea brain in relation to enthusiasts not rolling over to TVA and speaking out when things could be done differently.

If you all want to roll over then fine, but please thank those who work their butts off behind the scenes to improve the quality of the resource. Sitting back and watching the world go by will not change anything and just for your information myself and several others have been very active over the last month or so to come to some sort of agreement to better serve every entity involved with our river systems.

Next time you get the chance to wade the Clinch during the summer on a prescribed schedule, or notice the thriving benthic life in our rivers, the consistent minimum flows maintained by proper water mgt., realize that those things did not come about from just living with what is passed down from aunt TVA.

Some of you all may know David Buxbaum most probably don't, but if you ever meet him all of you owe him a big thanks for his untiring work many years ago to improve our tailwaters to where they are now by working with TVA to find a happy medium. He lives in Atlanta now, but haunted the very waters you all love to talk about, and if it weren't for him the Jail section would be in bad shape due to low flows with no generation.

Think about this next time you wade one of coldwater rivers.

PeteCz
08-22-2008, 07:43 PM
I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said in this last post. With all things being equal, TVA can be persuaded to address longer term issues. If a constituency brings forth a reasonable proposal and in doesn't adversely affect other groups, chances are TVA will approve the measure. We are all very thankful for the folks that have worked tirelessly (and namelessly and thanklessly, no doubt), on behalf of the fishing community and everyone concerned with our local environment. And I hope the fight goes on.

However, this conversation started with a concern over the warm water spilling over Appalachia in response to the breakdown to one of their generators. The article doesn't go into why TVA had the need to keep the flows up, so we can only speculate.

I agree and it is actions like this that prove to me that TVA has lost touch with the environmental impacts of some of their actions over the last 3 years.

The Elk River is about dead due to their generating regimes.

The Holston Trout fishery just got whacked again as temps have climbed into the middle 70's.

Now the Hiwassee takes a bath, because they are too ignorant to NOT SPILL 85 degree water down a coldwater fishery. Why that seemed like a good idea is beyond me, but would it have killed them to scale back generation for a few days while they got things fixed in order to save the fishery.

I like your passion for this issue, but I believe that there is more to the situation. With an extended dry period on top of a bad 2 year drought, water flows are at very low levels throughout the watershed and unfortunately for the coldwater fisheries, the water has to keep flowing regardless of the warming temperatures. A big part of TVAs mission has been to regulate the flow of water through the system and when a generator breaks down, they may have to take drastic measures. Had we been in a raining period or had the rivers been running strong already, its doubtful that they would have spilled. But it maybe that they had no choice. And it maybe that similar issues regarding flow are causing the damage to some of our tailwaters as well.

I go back to the link you provided:
If the total volume of water flowing into Chickamauga Reservoir is less than needed to meet system-wide flow requirements, additional water must be released from upstream reservoirs to augment the natural inflows (a function of rainfall and runoff), resulting in some drawdown of these projects.

Its possible that its ineptitude or a conspiracy, but I think its more likely a symptom of our drought and their response to what they have been tasked with doing (keep the flows, even at the unfortunate expense of the fish)

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 07:55 PM
It is in response to the 25,000 crap, but rather then weigh their options and air on the side of respecting the resource they went the exact opposite direction and decided to destroy a fishery over a 2 or 3 day lull in water flows which could have been made up from higher discharges in systems which would not have been adversely affected. It was a boneheaded maneuver and one that they should not be let off the hook for, especially seeing how other rivers are in peril at the same time. This issue is just getting warmed up, so stay tuned.

Paula Begley
08-22-2008, 08:19 PM
*sigh*

Do not let this thread degenerate. Seriously.

Unless someone has the inside information as to specifically why TVA released water, I'm inclined to just close this thing. Speculation is just that, speculation. I won't have a war here.

Paula

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 08:36 PM
No speculation on my behalf, I have been on the phone for weeks with TVA folks about all of this stuff. I think this is a great thread, I see nowhere that any personal attacks or any thing even close has happened and I think that discussing an issue which is important to a vast number of people who utilize this board is a major benefit.

Afterall fishing reports are great, but mobilizing the base to help out our resources is a much greater cause.

It is your board, and your call Paula, but in my opinion only good things can come from discussing issues which possibly can impact the future of some of our largest coldwater fisheries.

What happened this week is a tragedy to all of us, and if you close this thread it is turning everyones back to an issue which could be avoided again in the future.

Buxbaum would be proud of me and others for spearheading a movement to save our fisheries while we have a chance.

tennswede
08-22-2008, 08:55 PM
Waterwolf,

I do respect your opinion and your right to one as Voltaire said. However, I am more inclined to agree with PeteCz on this issue. I do feel that you have a tendency to want to dominate with your opinion. It would be nice if you sit back and don't make so many conclusions about me or any other debater. If I had been a more senisitve guy I would have taken a deep offense to your insinuation that since I'm not from here I don't know the history. It just isolates you as a person who like the argument for arguments sake.

I am in no way trying to make anyone mad, I even began my reply with a statement to the effect of " I don't want to make this in to an argument". I just wish you could debate with not so many harsh words and less jumping to conclusions. I'm in no way upset with neither you or anyone else and If I have made anyone upset I will apologize. I know I don't know everything but I do know enough to have a conversation in most circles without looking too lost.

On your statement about fishing reports, well maybe we need to take this issues to another venue it is after a board run by a commercial enterprise for their customers. It is not a political agenda forum nor is it our private forum for our opinions.

Anyone going to Clinch tomorrow?

ijsouth
08-22-2008, 09:50 PM
This is an interesting thread...I too am an out-of-towner, but I come up to the mountains several times a year to fish; I haven't partaken of any of the tailwaters yet. I noticed the subject of rates, etc came up, and I'm just curious, about how much are y'all paying for your electricity. Down here in Louisiana, I have a 1560 sq ft house, and last month paid almost $250 for electricity. Granted, our heat is brutal down here, and everything has gone up, but I'm curious nevertheless. I noticed the gasoline prices up there were the same or cheaper than here, even though 40% of this country's oil is either produced or flows through the terminal at Port Fourchon, and a big chunk of it is refined here. Of course, it's a different commodity - a lot of that extra cost is in the form of tax, and our sales taxes are high here.

waterwolf
08-22-2008, 10:49 PM
Waterwolf,

I do respect your opinion and your right to one as Voltaire said. However, I am more inclined to agree with PeteCz on this issue. I do feel that you have a tendency to want to dominate with your opinion. It would be nice if you sit back and don't make so many conclusions about me or any other debater. If I had been a more senisitve guy I would have taken a deep offense to your insinuation that since I'm not from here I don't know the history. It just isolates you as a person who like the argument for arguments sake.

I am in no way trying to make anyone mad, I even began my reply with a statement to the effect of " I don't want to make this in to an argument". I just wish you could debate with not so many harsh words and less jumping to conclusions. I'm in no way upset with neither you or anyone else and If I have made anyone upset I will apologize. I know I don't know everything but I do know enough to have a conversation in most circles without looking too lost.

On your statement about fishing reports, well maybe we need to take this issues to another venue it is after a board run by a commercial enterprise for their customers. It is not a political agenda forum nor is it our private forum for our opinions.

Anyone going to Clinch tomorrow?

I just had a differing opinion and for some reason others seemed to have taken offense to that. My opinions and views are formed from years of working, not fighting, with TVA and TWRA to better the tailwater resources.

Sure I have strong opinions but they are based on years of experience dealing with the Clinch and the politics involved with maintaining a quality fishery.

I was not making a slight at you, once again, to you being from out of town and if it came across that way then my apologies as that was not my intent. What you may or may not realize is that I helped you out countless times when you used to come into the shop and needed assistance, funny you never seemed to think I was such a bad person then.

As Paula said this is a touchy subject, and carries strong emotions and opinions with it. Having seen the river, along with tons of others, when there was no weir, D.O. levels were horrible, fishing was sub par, and everything was basically working against it, until concerned users got involved with a willing and supportive TWRA/TVA coalition I feel like I have a vested interest in the viability of the resource.

I did not and will not sit back and watch resources be exploited when alternatives are available which may not be quite as adverse to the ecology of the river. It is just that simple.

Life is too short to get even remotely ruffled about events on an internet forum. And I have yet to draw any conclusions about you or anyone else in this or any other topic. Most everyone on here I know personally even though they may not know who I am.

Fishing reports are a major aspect of this or any other fishing related forum, however what is at the heart of our universe is the health of the rivers we all love to frequent.

If we get blinded by fishing, flies, back patting, and gear major shifts can happen which will alter the quality of fishing we all enjoy to talk about in the other topics. Hard to have fishing reports if the rivers we are reporting on are no longer worthy of our time or our attention.

Cheap power is great, but at what point is enough, enough? I feel for the Hiwassee users as they have watched as their river has suffered for years and years and now has taken a serious hit. I hope things are not as bad as they seem, and we haven't suffered another significant loss to our fishery.

Waterborn
08-23-2008, 01:50 AM
I can say I am not well versed in the history of the TVA or all the politics - but it seems that there is always something that leaves me scratching my head about why did TVA do this or that...and while I'm all for maintaining and bettering a the quality of the waters we fish...TVA ultimately seems to me was not initally created for the enjoyment of my pastime and ultimately I'd have to yield to thier ultimate directives - maybe kicking and screaming, but yield just the same. They created it, I guess they can mess it up too...having said that - I applaud those who have come before and those who do press on to be the watchdogs of the waters which gives us some time to enjoy the resource while we have through its highs and lows - but I can't help but think though that in the end - its not truely "ours" ...sort of like renting a house - sure I can keep on the landlord about that faulty wiring or the leaky roof and he may accomodate and I'm sure to some legal aspect he'll have to, but ultimately he owns the house and its his to do whatever he has to do with it whether I benefit from it or not.
I do hope TVA/TWRA remembers us in the big sceme of things and that there will be continued groups working together for the betterment of the fishery. Personally I would like to be more active, but my job keeps me bound tight ...in the mean time it may be a case of having improvise,adapt, and overcome...(man I love that movie) and besides as we all know, there are other waters beside tailwaters...

Wolf, I gotta say - I think there is nothing wrong with strong opinions - maybe its a case of "not what you say, but how you say it"... moreover, you consistantly mention that you know everyone to some degree even calling some them out by name yet you like to maintain your anonymity - surely you can see how that may irk a few individuals...me, not so much because I know of you...at any rate...if there are those that are interested, what effective groups do you suggest people check out if they are interested in peacefully supporting TVA/TWRA in the process of helping out the tailwaters...

waterwolf
08-23-2008, 06:17 AM
There are no real groups. TU used to have some pull but lost all credibility many moons ago. It pretty much has to be done on an individual basis. Call, send letters, call, call, and call some more. Every year there is a meeting which is open to the public and both TVA and TWRA are there and the whole focus of the meeting is the coldwater tailwaters.

AS soon as I know the date I will be happy to post. It is the best forum for voicing an opinion and they do listen and do care what we think, or at least they used to.

buzzmcmanus
08-23-2008, 08:09 AM
This is an interesting thread...I too am an out-of-towner, but I come up to the mountains several times a year to fish; I haven't partaken of any of the tailwaters yet. I noticed the subject of rates, etc came up, and I'm just curious, about how much are y'all paying for your electricity. Down here in Louisiana, I have a 1560 sq ft house, and last month paid almost $250 for electricity. Granted, our heat is brutal down here, and everything has gone up, but I'm curious nevertheless. I noticed the gasoline prices up there were the same or cheaper than here, even though 40% of this country's oil is either produced or flows through the terminal at Port Fourchon, and a big chunk of it is refined here. Of course, it's a different commodity - a lot of that extra cost is in the form of tax, and our sales taxes are high here.

ijsouth, we cool 1,800 S.F. and our electric bill was $150 last month. It's usually less. Our gas prices were $3.47/gal this morning at Weigel's.

ijsouth
08-23-2008, 09:30 AM
Thanks Buzz...that's quite a difference, and I can't say I'm surprised. I think our power company generates most of its power from natural gas, and we all know what's happened to the price of that. As someone noted earlier however, power is bought and sold among these utility companies all the time, and TVA is the biggest player in the South - I wouldn't be surprised if our utility buys from them, no doubt at a premium price.

Anytime you are discussing huge public works like the TVA system, there's a series of trade-offs. It is like the levees down here - they keep the Mississippi out of people's homes, but they also deprive the vast marshlands of Southeast Louisiana of replenishing silt, so we're sinking into the sea, not to mention we've lost the buffer those wetlands provide when tropical systems come knocking. In this case, the tradeoff for flood protection and cheap power is the altering of natural river systems, and the fact that the new coldwater fisheries created are subordinate to power demands, etc. It's a tough situation, and I don't think there are any easy answers.

tennswede
08-23-2008, 01:01 PM
Waterwolf,

No I don't know who you are but I don't doubt you helped me out once or twice with some pointers. However I have got most of my knowledge from sweat equity and reading on my own. I used to give out frequent advice and help to all kinds of people on this board and others. However I don't feel that I ever gotten advice or major info without gaining it on my own. I think you give yourself too much credit.

I just don't like the tone of your voice when you debate that's all. I have never said that you are a bad person. You just get defensive when someone doesn't agree with you. I think it's understandable to a degree but I seriously question your maturity. You might have the age but you don't have the tact.

I'm not going to respond anymore to this, you will no doubt jump in on my next thread and that's alright but for your info, I will continue to give readers some fishing report which might not be of any interest to you. If they are not don't read them.

I believe they are fun and helpful as I like to read others peoples reports. It can give someone valuable info about water temps and hatches etc.

Worrgamesguy
08-23-2008, 01:24 PM
ijsouth, we cool 1,800 S.F. and our electric bill was $150 last month. It's usually less. Our gas prices were $3.47/gal this morning at Weigel's.

:eek:

The only thing I could even hope to respond to in this thread was that gas price. I just paid $3.23 two days ago.

ijsouth
08-23-2008, 01:28 PM
$3.23....the lowest it is around here is $3.57, and this is where it is produced...just goes to show how much of it is taxes of various forms.

pineman19
08-23-2008, 03:36 PM
Hans!

Please continue writing your fishing reports. I am particularly interested in your "Point Fly" method that you use on those Clinch River trout. Just don't this praise go to your head, remember I still have you beat in the mountains this year with my WILD doughbelly bow on the Roaring Fork on with my large yellow stimulator "on the skull method". Hope you did well on the Clinch today. I was feeling lazy and I am still resting my sore T-Bone from last weeks Deep Creek adventure.

Have fun!

Neal

sprestwood
08-23-2008, 05:47 PM
In the 1930's The Appalachia region was the poorest region in America, not to mention the great depression. The moutainous terrain did not lend itself to competive farming when the southern economy was at best agrcultural. Other ideas floating at that time in fiscal ecomomic policy was basically that spending large amounts on capital projects would improve economic outlooks. It did and has and if it were not for such projects the Appalachia region would still be the poorest region in America. That was the 30's and not only are we are we still benefiting from it but the ignorance of what would happen to the fishery has spurred sport fish restoration taxes and sport fish restoration projects. But it was ignorance, no one thought better, no one knew better. I would like fisheries to be completely restored and maybe that could include retiring a dam and not replacing it for the sake of the fishery. I cannot reasonably say that I will see ONE dam retired in my life, for the fishery. But it still inspires me in the face of what is a huge economic establishment with auto plants popping up all around needing MEGA watts. In the face of such huge issues I still make the best of fishing with generation and flucuating water levels and I believe TVA has been very conscious of how they affect the fishery with daily operation.

Rockyraccoon
08-23-2008, 07:28 PM
I've been working several rivers lately but I've not been on the Hiwassee in several weeks. So I can't venture a guess as to how this "occurrence" has affected the fishery. One of my partners in crime was on the river the day it happened and has closely monitored it since. He said he did see many fish belly up, so I'd assume that we did lose some fish. Probably more fish lost the farther you travel from the Powerhouse.

The reason behind the "occurrence" is simple.

1. Mechanical malfunction in one of the two turbines at Apalachia forced the TVA to take one turbine off line.

That's the way it goes with machines and equipment. Stuff breaks and has to be fixed.

The problems joined the race when someone at TVA made a very bad, decision without knowing all the facts or asking for directions from folks higher up.

Instead, the decision was made to try and adhere to the Recreation Flows which are primarily in place for the rafting outfitters. Now the fishing crowd, especially us guides, also benefit from the rec flows as we need at least one turbine to navigate the river. However, on this particular problem, the additional water was released for the benefit of the rafting companies.

My co worker counted 35 heads of people rafting. So, in this "occurrence". TVA made the wrong choice. Hiwassee Outfitters made $300 dollars or so because of TVA's decision to supplement the operational turbine with hot surface water.

$300 Dollars for rafting company / One of TWRA's highest grossing tailwaters and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of fish that "WE" pay for.

Seems to me, in this instance, TVA made a super bad call.

Much more thought needs to be put in decisions like this than just simply hitting a button.

I sincerely hope the person at fault loses their job over this bonehead call. They should have known better than to release hot surface water into a cold water fishery. Especially in August where the discharge from Apalachia Powerhouse can be borderline anyway. The people in charge and running these things should have a working knowledge of the tailwater fisheries. Our $150 a month power bills help pay these people and they are paid well. There should be some accountability.

OK, enough ranting. I'll just have to work on other waters for a while I guess.

waterwolf
08-23-2008, 08:08 PM
Dang Michael I knew I liked you. :biggrin:

You know what I find interesting is that below Wolf Creek the water temps have been touch and go, yet the KY DNR and the Corp have worked like crazy to do whatever they can to keep the fishery alive during an incredibly difficult set of circumstances. They have demonstrated they care about the resource as much as they care about anything else.

This week, this summer, and over the last 3 years TVA is showing an increasing lack of compassion for the resource as a whole. I was on the lower Holston today, and the river is in terrible shape. The banks are sloughing there are trees fallen into the water, and landowners are furious, all because of continuous high water in a drought year. Keep in mind this river has never shown this much damage from releases, not even when TVA had the flood gates open for 3 weeks straight 5 years ago. On top of that the water temps have sky rocketed to near 80 degrees, which I am sure wiped out the trout on the upper end. Just too much water over such an extended period of time is taking its toll on the river.

Several of our beloved rivers are in trouble, and we all have a choice to make. Speak out and try to change things for the better, or sit back and let things play out whether good or bad.

Some in this topic wish to turn this into a personal struggle when it isn't about any of us individually, and all about us as a whole. At least those who recreate on the rivers and reservoirs in this state, and the future of these resources.

Stonefly
08-24-2008, 12:24 PM
Buxbaum would be proud of me and others for spearheading a movement to save our fisheries while we have a chance.


If you're a friend of Bux, that means something.

sb

rainshaker
08-25-2008, 12:12 AM
Several of our beloved rivers are in trouble, and we all have a choice to make. Speak out and try to change things for the better, or sit back and let things play out whether good or bad.




For whatever it's worth, I found this public comment/complaint section on the TVA Website...

http://www.tva.gov/abouttva/pubnotices.htm

golfballs03
08-25-2008, 01:59 PM
So are they churning out water on the Holston strictly to satisfy energy demands?

Fishermansfly
08-25-2008, 02:17 PM
Here's an improtant question, "How many fish did it kill and what damage did it do to this fishery?" What's does the kill look like?

~Brett

sprestwood
09-26-2008, 09:48 AM
http://lakeinfo.tva.gov/htbin/lakeinfo?site=APH&DataType=All&submit=View+info

Has anyone witnessed if the Apalachia Dam spilling? I have an uncle that used to work for TVA and he said the website releases can be inaccurate. And if so, has anyone taken the temp of the water below the generators?
Thanks,
Scott

waterwolf
09-26-2008, 12:02 PM
I would say they are still spilling if that notice is up there. If anything TVA web schedules are 99% accurate. Sure sometimes they turn the water on an hour early and off an hour late. But usually they stick to that schedule.

I have not heard anymore about the status of the fishery.

Petey
09-26-2008, 08:57 PM
They are spilling a constant 25 cfs all day every day on the hour. it is done to help protect an endangered wild flower. I believe it is the Ruth Golden Aster.

It has a slight effect on the warming effect that occurs on the river, but not one that is extremely significant. Small lake to draw from and a wide shallow river bed, plus the drought are our real issues.A good number of the browns tend to survive and do so because of their ability to withstand marginal water.

Water is around 68 when TVA turns the wheels on at the Powerhouse, by the time you drop Towee Shoals it has warmed to the point that bites become extremely far and few between.

Petey

golfballs03
09-26-2008, 11:42 PM
So bottom line; I wouldn't recommend fishing the Hiwassee

Shaggy
09-27-2008, 01:28 PM
Hiwassee is fishing just fine as far as the Hiwassee goes. The fish are small of course with little fight, but upstream (closer to powerhouse) there are plenty of them. The temps are coming down as the weather cools.

Flat Fly n
09-28-2008, 05:40 PM
But......
1) I thought TVA was originally establised for power generation for Oak Ridge and Alcoa during WWII, with an after thought re: flood control, and the economics came second, or third. We had a war to win or there would be no concerns for the poor in this region or this country.

2) Is it true that hydro only accounts for 20% of the actual power TVA generates with the rest coal( one only needs to watch the coal cars coming in at Kingston steam plant and continuesly dumping coal while fishing for stripers in the winter)

3) Doesn't the Hiawassee have a warming problem every summer?

4) Knew Dave B. great guy, full of spit for someone about 5 foot nothing. A great fisherman and flytier. He used to fish something called a Clinch river midge.

5) I do believe TVA has lost some "focus" on the cold water fisheries it created many years ago. I would love to see some minimal flows on these rivers i.e. 250CFS constantly, if only during the summer months with water temps ups and lower DO. Somewhere in the back of my brain I remember water slowly coming out of the slucies on Norris when I started fishing there in 1986 and the fishing was incredible both in fish, size, and aquatic insects. (prior to some mysterious chlorine leak in the early 90's, which about killed the portion above the weir, but that's another story)

Thanks for the information, and passion on both ends of the spectrum. Now if we can channel all this energy to be a watchdog on TVA and help preserve the best trout fishing east of the Mississippi!