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View Full Version : Me... Tying?! Get out! Need MUCHO help!


Worrgamesguy
08-05-2009, 09:50 PM
I'm sure most of you know, I buy and sell paintball guns to make money. I bought a gun for $140, fixed it up, and traded it for another gun that I just sold for $400. $260 profit. And I have another $100 profit coming in tomorrow.

So, I'm looking to buy my first fly tying setup. I probably will tie nothing more than midges, scuds, BHPTs, and wooly buggers, nothing too intricate. I may end up tying EHCs, but much later down the road.

What should I start out with? I don't want a piece of junk that's going to break in a couple years.

My goal is to save myself from $2 zebra midges...

Carolina Boy
08-05-2009, 10:48 PM
"I probably will tie nothing more than midges, scuds, BHPTs, and wooly buggers" Aaaa Yea right bruddah tats wat we all said! hahahaha If you are only first tying, take my advice, get a nice vise that will work on most anything, did I ever think i would tie over 200 hundred bonefish flies for the bahamas when I learned to tie 10 years ago? ANSWER heck no! there is something that will get into you, and when it comes to creating flies to chase fish with you will be surprised how broad your horizons become. I think you said you are in undergrad school, so you only have a zillions years to chase fish with da long rod, trust me get something nice enough for all sorts of stuff I mean heck bass flies are tied on hooks similar in size to salty patterns, so believe me you will start out looking at size 22 zebras in your vise and the next thing ya know...bam.....electric chicken clousers for trout in da IOP SC! HAHA welcome to the next addiction brother! :cool:

Worrgamesguy
08-05-2009, 11:30 PM
I would be doing this by myself... Teaching myself. So here's what I'm figuring for expenses:

~$200 vise
$50 tying tool kit (doubles as fly box)
$50 fly tying book (highly recommended by Grumpy)
$? materials

David Knapp
08-06-2009, 12:01 AM
You should be able to get a good vise for a little under $200 and put more into materials... Decide which 6 or so flies you use the most and get the materials to tie them...also it wouldn't hurt to see what flies the tying book teaches you and get the materials for those. Most good tying books progress from easy to more difficult techiques and skills and incorporate patterns that require those techniques. For example, tying a Gold Ribbed Hares Ear nymph is good practice early on because you have to focus on proportions, learn how to dub and rib a body, and tie in a wingcase. I wouldn't start tying a parachute adams or stimulator until you've mastered some easier patterns... Zebra midges are pretty easy except that they are small so those would be good to learn on...

BlueRaiderFan
08-06-2009, 01:23 AM
The Griffith Odessy Spider Vise works well for me and it's under $90. If you are really into tying, it wouldn't be enough, but I tie all kinds of stuff wth it and it is a rotary vise. Some place sell a combo pack of hackle these days (ask LRO if they do, if not check around). You can get three types of hackle in one pack and it's enough to tie several dozen flies. I would aslo recommend a dubbing dispenser (filled with dubbing of course). You don't get a lot of dubbing, but you get plenty to get you started and can buy the colors you use more of later (the dispenser plus about 12 colors of dubbing is around $15). After that, you just need a few tools, thread, etc (I recommend skipping the fly head cement and using Zap A Gap on everything...my midges stay together much longer with it). You can get a small tool kit cheap to and they have all the basic tools. My 2 cents.

silvercreek
08-06-2009, 07:57 AM
Get the best vise you can afford. Get it with jaws that can handle midges to bass flies or at least has replaceable jaws to do so. Get with a base instead of the clamp to table type. Seems like every table you will try to clamp to puts the vise in a weird position. Dick Talleur has some good books on tying. There is a ton of tying instruction on the web. Oh yeah, you won't save a penny. But if you were in this for the money you would not be fly fishing anyway. Tying is a great hobby with a practical result.

MadisonBoats
08-06-2009, 08:07 AM
You will want a desk light, maybe a magnifying light (staples), and make you a nice backdrop. To explain; you can get one of those plastic magazine holders at staples and just sit a nice piece of white paper on it. I like to put this behind my fly in the vice to help me see it better. Get a good vise-don't worry about attachments. You can make those very cheap and custom to hold spools, tools, etc...

Search this forum; there is a topic about tying stations that may help guide you too...

Oh, there are tons of fly tying videos on YouTube. I use it often and just pause it between steps...

Carolina Boy
08-06-2009, 09:14 AM
Yea I tell ya I took a class, cost me around 80 bucks and it was so worth it. I was lucky to learn from Roger Lowe who can sure wrap some bugs, but tis will really cut down on the learning curve. I bought a desk light where the light will move all over the place suspended by some metal looking arm from wal-mart for likle 9 bucks works great

PeteCz
08-06-2009, 10:02 AM
First off, if you are paying $2 per ZM you aren't doing a good of price shopping. LRO has them for $1.65 and they ship them, for free...

Lets look at your break-even proposition. You've already decided that you will need to spend over $300 to get started. Your variable cost on zebra midges may be close to $.40 per fly when you factor in your hooks ($4+ for 25), beadheads ($2+ for 25), wire and thread. You might be able to get it down to $.25 per fly if you buy in larger quantities, but you get the point.

If you save $1.25 per fly (after factoring in your variable costs) you will need to tie approximately 240 Zebra Midges before you break even (and that doesn't include the countless hours tying them). If you lose 4 of them each time you fish, that means you will have make 60 trips before you use all of them up...and break even...

Don't tie flies just to save money, because you never will. I know it sounds tempting and that if you tie a select number of flies you can actually save money, but it will NEVER happen...You will either get frustrated at how long it will take you to tie your first 240 flies, or you will fall in lover with tying and will do it because you enjoy it (and then spend a bunch more money on materials you may never use....)

I think you will find the majority of us that have done it for more than a few years, do it because of the connection we feel to fishing, when we aren't fishing...I spent all of this past year tying flies for a trip to Colorado. Each time I sat down to tie, I wound up thinking about the streams I would fish and the Cutthroat Trout I would chase with the flies I was tying. It was like I went on a mini-vacation each time I sat down at the vise....

Don't turn it into a job...enjoy it and forget the cost savings idea...

Carolina Boy
08-06-2009, 01:39 PM
Well Put PeteCz the only thing that is better than sitting at the vise thinking bout where you will fish your next creation, is being out there stickin a fish with what you made.

ttas67
08-06-2009, 02:40 PM
you've gotten some good advice so far. Yes, you theoretically can tie flies for much cheaper than you buy them, but you will always spend much more in the long run on tying materials. However, it is still infinitely more satisfying to tie your own flies.

Normally I wouldn't say this, but yeah, go ahead and buy a nice vise. I think it's pretty safe to predict that this is something you'll be involved with for a long time, so go ahead and spend the money and consider it an investment. The renzetti traveler is a good all around vise for just under $200.

Also, a tying class is very helpful.

silvercreek
08-06-2009, 05:38 PM
I got started because there were just not many places where I could buy flies locally. But it has become a major source of satisfaction. It's kinda nice to sit at the vise during the dead of winter tying flies and thinking about trout fishing.

flynut
08-07-2009, 01:16 AM
Honestly, if you're just getting started, I don't think you need to spend anywhere near $200 on a vise. On the flip side though, the vise from the 'starter' kit I bought when I started broke after a year or so. So I would recommend getting something that is reasonably priced that won't break the bank. As others have said, put more money into materials, which you'll find will add up very quickly.

A good book I would recommend is "The Benchside Introduction to Fly Tying" by Ted Leeson and Jim Schollmeyer. It's pages are cut in half, the top part showing the fly recipes and instructions, and the lower pages showing how to perform certain techniques that are incorporated in the fly recipe on the top half. This allows you to keep the recipe and the technique visible at the same time. I just googled it and saw that Amazon has it for $30.

And that's if you want to spend money on a book, I think that there is plenty of great info on the internet for free. Flyrecipes.com is a good one, and YouTube has lots of demonstrations too. All of the recipes you mentioned will be online.

Finally, as for the cost issue. Don't do it just to save money in the 'long run'...There are plenty of good discussions on that topic in this forum. Tie because you are interested in the process of creating something from scratch that is not only beautiful and imitative, but that also catches fish. The feeling you'll get from catching your first trout on a fly you tied is amazing! And the time you spend at the bench will make the wait until you get to the river to fish those flies you tied just a little easier.

Good Luck and welcome to the game!

Worrgamesguy
08-07-2009, 02:24 AM
Oh boy, this is gonna be a long post :redface:

You should be able to get a good vise for a little under $200 and put more into materials... Decide which 6 or so flies you use the most and get the materials to tie them...also it wouldn't hurt to see what flies the tying book teaches you and get the materials for those. Most good tying books progress from easy to more difficult techiques and skills and incorporate patterns that require those techniques. For example, tying a Gold Ribbed Hares Ear nymph is good practice early on because you have to focus on proportions, learn how to dub and rib a body, and tie in a wingcase. I wouldn't start tying a parachute adams or stimulator until you've mastered some easier patterns... Zebra midges are pretty easy except that they are small so those would be good to learn on...

Zebras are my main focus, they're really all I use. I'm gonna fill boxes with nothing but zebras. But I don't think I'll be tying anything intricate, because I really don't use anything intricate.

The Griffith Odessy Spider Vise works well for me and it's under $90. If you are really into tying, it wouldn't be enough, but I tie all kinds of stuff wth it and it is a rotary vise. Some place sell a combo pack of hackle these days (ask LRO if they do, if not check around). You can get three types of hackle in one pack and it's enough to tie several dozen flies. I would aslo recommend a dubbing dispenser (filled with dubbing of course). You don't get a lot of dubbing, but you get plenty to get you started and can buy the colors you use more of later (the dispenser plus about 12 colors of dubbing is around $15). After that, you just need a few tools, thread, etc (I recommend skipping the fly head cement and using Zap A Gap on everything...my midges stay together much longer with it). You can get a small tool kit cheap to and they have all the basic tools. My 2 cents.

You're speaking French to me... I don't have a clue what dubbing is.

Get the best vise you can afford. Get it with jaws that can handle midges to bass flies or at least has replaceable jaws to do so. Get with a base instead of the clamp to table type. Seems like every table you will try to clamp to puts the vise in a weird position. Dick Talleur has some good books on tying. There is a ton of tying instruction on the web. Oh yeah, you won't save a penny. But if you were in this for the money you would not be fly fishing anyway. Tying is a great hobby with a practical result.

I planned on getting one with a base, I picked one up at BPS that had a base that weighed a solid 10 pounds, it was sturdy.

You will want a desk light, maybe a magnifying light (staples), and make you a nice backdrop. To explain; you can get one of those plastic magazine holders at staples and just sit a nice piece of white paper on it. I like to put this behind my fly in the vice to help me see it better. Get a good vise-don't worry about attachments. You can make those very cheap and custom to hold spools, tools, etc...

Search this forum; there is a topic about tying stations that may help guide you too...

Oh, there are tons of fly tying videos on YouTube. I use it often and just pause it between steps...

I'm 18, I don't have trouble seeing what's in front of me ;) I'm just messing, sounds like a plan to me. I already found a few fly recipes on Youtube, very helpful.

Yea I tell ya I took a class, cost me around 80 bucks and it was so worth it. I was lucky to learn from Roger Lowe who can sure wrap some bugs, but tis will really cut down on the learning curve. I bought a desk light where the light will move all over the place suspended by some metal looking arm from wal-mart for likle 9 bucks works great

I'll be taking a class from LRO very soon, whenever they start.

First off, if you are paying $2 per ZM you aren't doing a good of price shopping. LRO has them for $1.65 and they ship them, for free...

Lets look at your break-even proposition. You've already decided that you will need to spend over $300 to get started. Your variable cost on zebra midges may be close to $.40 per fly when you factor in your hooks ($4+ for 25), beadheads ($2+ for 25), wire and thread. You might be able to get it down to $.25 per fly if you buy in larger quantities, but you get the point.

If you save $1.25 per fly (after factoring in your variable costs) you will need to tie approximately 240 Zebra Midges before you break even (and that doesn't include the countless hours tying them). If you lose 4 of them each time you fish, that means you will have make 60 trips before you use all of them up...and break even...

Don't tie flies just to save money, because you never will. I know it sounds tempting and that if you tie a select number of flies you can actually save money, but it will NEVER happen...You will either get frustrated at how long it will take you to tie your first 240 flies, or you will fall in lover with tying and will do it because you enjoy it (and then spend a bunch more money on materials you may never use....)

I think you will find the majority of us that have done it for more than a few years, do it because of the connection we feel to fishing, when we aren't fishing...I spent all of this past year tying flies for a trip to Colorado. Each time I sat down to tie, I wound up thinking about the streams I would fish and the Cutthroat Trout I would chase with the flies I was tying. It was like I went on a mini-vacation each time I sat down at the vise....

Don't turn it into a job...enjoy it and forget the cost savings idea...

$1.79 at Bass Pro, I just rounded up. I'm not looking to break even, or anything like that. I'm not factoring in the price of the vise, just the price per fly. That's just how I work. I don't factor in gas or food with fly fishing trips, ya know? I won't let tying get me frustrated, I'll save the frustration for on the stream :rolleyes:

Well Put PeteCz the only thing that is better than sitting at the vise thinking bout where you will fish your next creation, is being out there stickin a fish with what you made.

I can't wait! Hopefully I'll be decent at tying so I can catch fish with my own creations.

you've gotten some good advice so far. Yes, you theoretically can tie flies for much cheaper than you buy them, but you will always spend much more in the long run on tying materials. However, it is still infinitely more satisfying to tie your own flies.

Normally I wouldn't say this, but yeah, go ahead and buy a nice vise. I think it's pretty safe to predict that this is something you'll be involved with for a long time, so go ahead and spend the money and consider it an investment. The renzetti traveler is a good all around vise for just under $200.

Also, a tying class is very helpful.

I bet! I'll look into that vise, I've heard good things.

I got started because there were just not many places where I could buy flies locally. But it has become a major source of satisfaction. It's kinda nice to sit at the vise during the dead of winter tying flies and thinking about trout fishing.

I spend way too much time on electronics, so it will help keep me entertained.

Honestly, if you're just getting started, I don't think you need to spend anywhere near $200 on a vise. On the flip side though, the vise from the 'starter' kit I bought when I started broke after a year or so. So I would recommend getting something that is reasonably priced that won't break the bank. As others have said, put more money into materials, which you'll find will add up very quickly.

A good book I would recommend is "The Benchside Introduction to Fly Tying" by Ted Leeson and Jim Schollmeyer. It's pages are cut in half, the top part showing the fly recipes and instructions, and the lower pages showing how to perform certain techniques that are incorporated in the fly recipe on the top half. This allows you to keep the recipe and the technique visible at the same time. I just googled it and saw that Amazon has it for $30.

And that's if you want to spend money on a book, I think that there is plenty of great info on the internet for free. Flyrecipes.com is a good one, and YouTube has lots of demonstrations too. All of the recipes you mentioned will be online.

Finally, as for the cost issue. Don't do it just to save money in the 'long run'...There are plenty of good discussions on that topic in this forum. Tie because you are interested in the process of creating something from scratch that is not only beautiful and imitative, but that also catches fish. The feeling you'll get from catching your first trout on a fly you tied is amazing! And the time you spend at the bench will make the wait until you get to the river to fish those flies you tied just a little easier.

Good Luck and welcome to the game!

I want a quality vise that may last the rest of my life, pay for quality now, so I won't have to pay again later. And that's the exact book I was recommended, except I don't remember the price for it. But I thought it was really cool how the pages were split.

I'll check out all these recommendations, thanks!

BlueRaiderFan
08-07-2009, 10:20 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6HR-uBbybM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CyVk6dizw


Dubbing is fur (or a synthetic material) that is used to make the fly body on most flies. BTW, a class will get you up to speed much faster than YouTube. YouTube has a lot of good stuff, but not enough to really get you going quickly. You'll never look at a bird feather in the parking lot the same way again...same goes for road kill.

silvercreek
08-07-2009, 11:42 AM
Your post reminds me of when I got started. I only had a flytying book with line drawings. No internet, no DVD's. no VCR's. The book kept talking about dubbing, but never said what it was. Not even in the dictionary I had. Man was I confused.

Treecatcher2
08-07-2009, 02:19 PM
and they do make it easier to understand.

Its a great feeling catching a trout in park on a fly you tied (even if it doesn't look quite like those bin)

PeteCz
08-07-2009, 06:11 PM
$1.79 at Bass Pro, I just rounded up. I'm not looking to break even, or anything like that. I'm not factoring in the price of the vise, just the price per fly. That's just how I work. I don't factor in gas or food with fly fishing trips, ya know?

Do NOT become an Accountant......:biggrin:

When you tie your first few flies, save them...you'll get a good laugh out of them later...

A class is an excellent way to get jump started. I learned through reading and trial and error (mostly error). Here are a few websites I have bookmarked over the years:
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/intermediate/archive.php
http://troutflies.com/tutorials/
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/flybox/index.cfm
http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/comparadone!/ (http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/comparadone%21/)
http://www.flyrecipes.com/index.php
http://littleriveroutfitters.com/littleriverjournal/storiesfeb09/lefty/sixflies.html
http://www.wildtroutonthefly.com/flytyingtipstricks.html
http://www.thetyingbench.com/recipes/recipe.php?UID=104
http://hipwader.com/2004/tying-mrrapidan-dry-fly
http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/jbwhip/
http://flyguysoutfitting.com/whipfinish.html
http://copperfly.net/fly_tying_videos.php
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/
http://flyguysoutfitting.com/flytutorials.html
http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/ljdecuir/smpatrns.htm (http://www.uky.edu/%7Eagrdanny/flyfish/ljdecuir/smpatrns.htm)
http://www.akflyfishers.com/flyofmonth.html
http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?
http://www.theflybench.com/
http://www.southeastflyfishingforum.com/flypatterns/index.php
http://www.danica.com/flytier/index.html
http://www.flytyingworld.com/flyindex.shtml

btw, for me, there is one thing better than catching fish with flies you tie yourself. That is giving flies that you tied to someone else and then watching them catch a fish with a fly you tied....

got2fish
08-07-2009, 08:30 PM
I agree with Carolina Boy about taking a class. My wife and I took a day quite a few winters ago and took a beginner fly tying class at LRO and truly enjoyed it. We got to tie a few easy flies and learn some techniques that helped on some other flies.

I bought a Dyn-King rotary vice and have absolutely loved it. Along with it, I bought a portable tying table at LRO as well. I think they still sell them. It is a white table that is made for placing on another table (no legs). It has a magnifying glass and lamp attached. I have it on a desk upstairs and it does a GREAT job. I really like its portability too. I can take it with me camping or to hotels to tie flies on the go.

Good luck!

David Knapp
08-07-2009, 08:32 PM
btw, for me, there is one thing better than catching fish with flies you tie yourself. That is giving flies that you tied to someone else and then watching them catch a fish with a fly you tied....

Pete, let's go fishing and you can bring the flies...:rolleyes: I'll do my best to catch some fish on them...:biggrin:

doghaircaddis
08-07-2009, 09:54 PM
I have a clamp vise you can have if you want. It's not the nicest vice, but it will work fine for tying a few zebras or PTs. I just replaced it with a Peak Vise, and I'd rather someone be putting it to use than it sitting in the closet. Shoot me an email at the address below if you're interested. I live down the road from you in Murfreesboro.

Worrgamesguy
08-08-2009, 12:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6HR-uBbybM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CyVk6dizw


Dubbing is fur (or a synthetic material) that is used to make the fly body on most flies. BTW, a class will get you up to speed much faster than YouTube. YouTube has a lot of good stuff, but not enough to really get you going quickly. You'll never look at a bird feather in the parking lot the same way again...same goes for road kill.

I already thought that before the concept of tying came up :biggrin:

Your post reminds me of when I got started. I only had a flytying book with line drawings. No internet, no DVD's. no VCR's. The book kept talking about dubbing, but never said what it was. Not even in the dictionary I had. Man was I confused.

Was the book carved on a stone tablet by chance? ;) I'm a hooligan, I know :p

and they do make it easier to understand.

Its a great feeling catching a trout in park on a fly you tied (even if it doesn't look quite like those bin)

I can't wait!

Do NOT become an Accountant......:biggrin:

When you tie your first few flies, save them...you'll get a good laugh out of them later...

A class is an excellent way to get jump started. I learned through reading and trial and error (mostly error). Here are a few websites I have bookmarked over the years:
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/flytying/intermediate/archive.php
http://troutflies.com/tutorials/
http://www.charliesflyboxinc.com/flybox/index.cfm
http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/comparadone!/ (http://globalflyfisher.com/tiebetter/comparadone%21/)
http://www.flyrecipes.com/index.php
http://littleriveroutfitters.com/littleriverjournal/storiesfeb09/lefty/sixflies.html
http://www.wildtroutonthefly.com/flytyingtipstricks.html
http://www.thetyingbench.com/recipes/recipe.php?UID=104
http://hipwader.com/2004/tying-mrrapidan-dry-fly
http://flyfisherman.com/ftb/jbwhip/
http://flyguysoutfitting.com/whipfinish.html
http://copperfly.net/fly_tying_videos.php
http://www.flyanglersonline.com/
http://flyguysoutfitting.com/flytutorials.html
http://www.uky.edu/~agrdanny/flyfish/ljdecuir/smpatrns.htm (http://www.uky.edu/%7Eagrdanny/flyfish/ljdecuir/smpatrns.htm)
http://www.akflyfishers.com/flyofmonth.html
http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?
http://www.theflybench.com/
http://www.southeastflyfishingforum.com/flypatterns/index.php
http://www.danica.com/flytier/index.html
http://www.flytyingworld.com/flyindex.shtml

btw, for me, there is one thing better than catching fish with flies you tie yourself. That is giving flies that you tied to someone else and then watching them catch a fish with a fly you tied....

Holy! I'm definitely bookmarking this thread! Thanks for all the links.

I agree with Carolina Boy about taking a class. My wife and I took a day quite a few winters ago and took a beginner fly tying class at LRO and truly enjoyed it. We got to tie a few easy flies and learn some techniques that helped on some other flies.

I bought a Dyn-King rotary vice and have absolutely loved it. Along with it, I bought a portable tying table at LRO as well. I think they still sell them. It is a white table that is made for placing on another table (no legs). It has a magnifying glass and lamp attached. I have it on a desk upstairs and it does a GREAT job. I really like its portability too. I can take it with me camping or to hotels to tie flies on the go.

Good luck!

I'll definitely look into that, thanks!

I have a clamp vice you can have if you want. It's not the nicest vice, but it will work fine for tying a few zebras or PTs. I just replaced it with a Peak Vice, and I'd rather someone be putting it to use than it sitting in the closet. Shoot me an email at the address below if you're interested. I live down the road from you in Murfreesboro.

Oh wow! Email incoming!

MadisonBoats
08-08-2009, 08:20 AM
Worrgamesguy,
The backdrop is for contrast so that you discern your dubbing, wrap style, and any imperfections. Maybe I am just old too:biggrin:

PeteCz,
Nice links, I will have to check a few of these out and save what I like....Thanks for sharing for all too...

Hal M
08-08-2009, 12:20 PM
I use a light green piece of poster board for my background, it definitely helps the eyes, especially the older one's like mine.
Good luck you will definitely enjoy tying especially when you can not be on the water. It will also improve your fishing and make it much more rewarding!

Hal M

Stonefly
08-09-2009, 06:15 PM
No one's mentioned this, but you might consider joining MTFF or Hendersonville Fly Fishers. HFF has a library that includes some good tying books, plus they put on group lessons once or twice a year for a fair price.
Also, the monthly meetings on occasion are devoted to tying with members set up around the room to demonstrate various techniques. I haven't been in MTFF for a long time now, but I'd guess they do some of these same things.

sb

gutshot
08-12-2009, 10:45 PM
Save yourself some money and don't buy any tying books right out of the gate. Your local library has an interlibrary loan that can get you any book out there for free to use over weeks to months. I wasted a lot of money in my youth on books that featured flies for places I would never or rarely fish. Plenty of stuff online too. When you find a book you really like later on then you can buy it with the confidence you will use it.

Renzetti vices are great I have had mine around 20 years. Worth the investment.

There are ways to save lots of money on your tying, you can get a zebra midge down to about $0.45 each using real tungsten beads.

Starter kits may be a waste of money for you since you are focused in on a few patterns you will be fishing frequently. Invest your money in the tools and materials needed to tie those flies well and then add later. You will save a lot of time and money doing this, and your flies will be of a better quality.

Do not take up hunting to procure fly tying material. That cost me a good 12 years of diverted focus and duck hunting is an expensive passion. Get to know hunters that will supply you with high quality material. Then you can learn to dye your own materials......oh you have no idea.

GS