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View Full Version : Revisiting an old topic-Spawning on the Clinch


waterwolf
06-23-2010, 10:16 PM
I saw billions upon billions of rainbow fry in the river today. Based on years past the numbers I saw today exponentially trump what I have witnessed over the years. Good sign, and I wish Jim Habera or one of the other TWRA "coldwater biologists" would spew off that there is no natural reproduction in the Clinch now. Shame it has been going on for years, and they are either to afraid to admit it or don't want to be proven wrong as usual.

On a positive TWRA note, I nicely phoned in some poachers on the river today. I knew who the folks were unfortunately for them, and TWRA will be watching. I still can't believe they just sat there and listened to me reporting them on my cell 50 yards away from them in the river.

yellowsulphur29
06-24-2010, 01:49 AM
Good luck getting much done. The friday before free fishing day, TWRA released 3000 trout right at the Miller Island boat ramp. Much to my dismay, this was done around 10:00AM; well before the intended release, leaving the trout helplessly trapped in the slough that has been formed there by folks powerloading their boats.. After much conversation with the hatchery techs, I assisted them in netting the trout that had been left to swim in a narrow 1 foot depth bowl and move them to the open river. After several hours, we decided this was quite futile as several hundred remained and would not appear to leave before the generation began. I stayed until the enforcement officer arrived to monitor the situation and prevent poaching, only to come back an hour later after lunch to find the TWRA official gone and several disrespectful individuals removing the trout from the hole about as quick as they could get them in their coolers. I made some comments to the fact that I too was calling TWRA only to be chastised by several, who returned with remarks such as, I was just having them leave so I could have them all to myself. Since the local enforcement officer had left me his phone number, I placed the call to dispatch while in the presence of these "poachers" who disgruntingly left the area before his arrival, only now leaving the area with far fewer trout than were prior. It sickens me that grown adults have so little regards for others as to take the time to call themselves fishermen by basically capturing a confined fish as though they had just walked to a fish bowl and yelled "got it". I have let it be known to TWRA that they could have made more adequate steps to ensure the survival of these trout by waiting until adequate flow, choosing a more appropriate area for release, or monitoring the area more closely. What good is a slot if the trout never have a chance to make it there anyway. For the most part, all trout taken were just slightly under the slot according to the hatchery officials...13-14 inches for all of them. If any of your folks see a tattooed burly fellow driving an older black mercedes 4 door, he was helping himself to so many I lost count. Not to mention all the fellow acquaintances he phoned on his cell while I watched.

Worrgamesguy
06-24-2010, 03:23 AM
You guys are CRAZY. I would NEVER phone in poachers within earshot of the offender, that's just asking for trouble! I'd excuse myself from the river and make the call where it couldn't be heard by anyone.

Just like this spring, my grandpa called the police on some redneck girls in WV who were fighting in the street. He walked out to the street, and looked at them the entire time he was on the phone. 5 minutes later 2 cruisers came zipping down the street and dissolved the fight. Sure enough, his house was vandalized shortly after. He could have easily stepped inside and made that phone call to remain anonymous.

waterwolf
06-24-2010, 06:51 AM
Good luck getting much done. The friday before free fishing day, TWRA released 3000 trout right at the Miller Island boat ramp. Much to my dismay, this was done around 10:00AM; well before the intended release, leaving the trout helplessly trapped in the slough that has been formed there by folks powerloading their boats.. After much conversation with the hatchery techs, I assisted them in netting the trout that had been left to swim in a narrow 1 foot depth bowl and move them to the open river. After several hours, we decided this was quite futile as several hundred remained and would not appear to leave before the generation began. I stayed until the enforcement officer arrived to monitor the situation and prevent poaching, only to come back an hour later after lunch to find the TWRA official gone and several disrespectful individuals removing the trout from the hole about as quick as they could get them in their coolers. I made some comments to the fact that I too was calling TWRA only to be chastised by several, who returned with remarks such as, I was just having them leave so I could have them all to myself. Since the local enforcement officer had left me his phone number, I placed the call to dispatch while in the presence of these "poachers" who disgruntingly left the area before his arrival, only now leaving the area with far fewer trout than were prior. It sickens me that grown adults have so little regards for others as to take the time to call themselves fishermen by basically capturing a confined fish as though they had just walked to a fish bowl and yelled "got it". I have let it be known to TWRA that they could have made more adequate steps to ensure the survival of these trout by waiting until adequate flow, choosing a more appropriate area for release, or monitoring the area more closely. What good is a slot if the trout never have a chance to make it there anyway. For the most part, all trout taken were just slightly under the slot according to the hatchery officials...13-14 inches for all of them. If any of your folks see a tattooed burly fellow driving an older black mercedes 4 door, he was helping himself to so many I lost count. Not to mention all the fellow acquaintances he phoned on his cell while I watched.
Sad story, and what it amazes how crazy people get over a nasty stocker. It's just a fish.

I guess it shows how little some people have in their life, if they get that crazed over a trout.

You guys are CRAZY. I would NEVER phone in poachers within earshot of the offender, that's just asking for trouble! I'd excuse myself from the river and make the call where it couldn't be heard by anyone.


What are they going to do? Come up and try to fight me? Well that would be a mistake, as mad as I was it would take one swing from one of them for them to be poachers no more. In other words, I always pack on the river, and have for years.

In this particular situation they were so engrossed in their redneck chatter that they never had any idea I was talking about them. I hung up the phone continued fishing, and they never missed a beat.

Rodonthefly
06-24-2010, 07:18 AM
Jim it wasn't 2 guys with spinning rods down at the jail was it? I saw a couple down there, i just shook my head and walked away.

Someone post that number again, i forgot to put it in my phone last time. Maybe with more of us calling in they will better potrol it. i doubt it but it's worth a try.

Green Weenie
06-24-2010, 08:31 AM
What's really sad is that those fish were put there for the "Kids Fish Free Day". :mad: Some people just suck.

Wilson10
06-24-2010, 08:41 AM
A couple weeks ago up at the Church I saw a guy do something that truly burned me up.

This guy had been casting his roostertail all around me up and down the river. I did notice that he had a few fish on a stringer that he had attached to his hip.

It was nearly dark and after packing all my gear up, I started to pull out of the parking lot and I happened to notice the guy bent over. At first I thought he had caught another, but NO... He was releasing the dead fish back into the water! :mad: I'm still kicking myself for not letting that guy know how disrespectful that is to our river. Yeah, those fish will be eaten by something, but it just made zero sense to me.

Grannyknot
06-24-2010, 08:42 AM
I've never really understood why they disparage the effectiveness of trout spawning on the Clinch, yet they have signs posted all over Clear Creek saying "protected trout spawing area".

ChemEAngler
06-24-2010, 09:10 AM
1-800-831-1174

Put it in your phones, and use it. People aren't going to just stop misusing our rivers, we have to do our part to push the results in our favor.

Rodonthefly
06-24-2010, 09:48 AM
Thanks Travis, I just saved it in my phone. I sure could have used that during Turkey season.

waterwolf
06-24-2010, 09:53 AM
What's really sad is that those fish were put there for the "Kids Fish Free Day". :mad: Some people just suck.
That makes it even worse, unbelievable what white trash bait slingers will do just to catch their limit.
A couple weeks ago up at the Church I saw a guy do something that truly burned me up.

This guy had been casting his roostertail all around me up and down the river. I did notice that he had a few fish on a stringer that he had attached to his hip.

It was nearly dark and after packing all my gear up, I started to pull out of the parking lot and I happened to notice the guy bent over. At first I thought he had caught another, but NO... He was releasing the dead fish back into the water! :mad: I'm still kicking myself for not letting that guy know how disrespectful that is to our river. Yeah, those fish will be eaten by something, but it just made zero sense to me.
Remarkable, I don't know how I would have reacted. Probably not in a positive manner.

I've never really understood why they disparage the effectiveness of trout spawning on the Clinch, yet they have signs posted all over Clear Creek saying "protected trout spawing area".
Because they are uneducated, remember these are some of the same people who have had a difficult time distinguishing rainbows from browns. I have literally witnessed Mr. Habera blatantly and forcefully deny any natural reproduction in the Clinch while being shown pictures of trout fry collected by TVA biologists from the river.

It is like weatermen, no matter how wrong or ill informed they might be they still keep their jobs. Sad that our money is used to pay their salaries, and keep the ineptitude circle going.
1-800-831-1174

Put it in your phones, and use it. People aren't going to just stop misusing our rivers, we have to do our part to push the results in our favor.
The GW's in that area will usually respond, and respond quickly if they are available. I have no beef with the enforcement guys, they do their part, there just isn't enough of them.

TNBigBore
06-24-2010, 10:42 AM
"Because they are uneducated, remember these are some of the same people who have had a difficult time distinguishing rainbows from browns. I have literally witnessed Mr. Habera blatantly and forcefully deny any natural reproduction in the Clinch while being shown pictures of trout fry collected by TVA biologists from the river.

It is like weatermen, no matter how wrong or ill informed they might be they still keep their jobs. Sad that our money is used to pay their salaries, and keep the ineptitude circle going."




Waterwolf, I respect your knowledge of the Clinch River and its fishery, but you are wrong in your assessment of the TWRA coldwater biologists. I know Jim, Bart, Rick and Carl very well, and worked with them for several years. While they may well be wrong on natural reproduction in the Clinch, they are far from uneducated. To say that Jim or any other member of this crew has a hard time distinguishing a brown from a rainbow is ridiculous.

I have witnessed Jim sort through buckets of various minnows, chubs, shiners, darters, trout etc right alongside David Etnier. I know Etnier as well and he has the utmost respect for Jim. In case you don't know who Etnier is, he wrote the book on Tennessee fishes literally.

I am sure you are frustrated that Jim and TWRA apparently discount your observation of natural reproduction on the Clinch. From the details of your accounts, I have no doubt you are being truthful in what you report. You have to realize though, that the fisheries guys are constantly approached by locals with information that proves to be inaccurate, misinformed, harebrained etc. I don't know why they did not find significant numbers of young of the year rainbows when sampling. I remember them showing up in relatively high numbers on the South Holston and Watauga. It was pretty east to tell that natural reproduction was going on there. I don't know what it is about the Clinch that keeps them from showing up in the samples in numbers.

You have to realize that they are responsible for managing all of the trout fisheries from Tellico all the way up to the Tri Cities including tailwaters and wild trout streams. I know from experience that they spend pretty much all summer and fall out on the streams and rivers sampling, and then all winter analyzing data and writing their reports. That is a lot of time on the water. These guys know their stuff, but they cannot know every single river or stream as well as a local that spends many weeks a year on a particular body of water.

Again, I understand your frustration, and the conclusions you have drawn about Jim and crew based on their assessment of one river. Nevertheless, these are smart guys that know what they are doing though, and are a valuable resource in my opinion.

TNBigBore
06-24-2010, 10:46 AM
I might also add that Jim and crew are not simply egghead academians. They are also avid flyfishermen.

MadisonBoats
06-24-2010, 11:12 AM
RE: TWRA Research

...
Again, I understand your frustration, and the conclusions you have drawn about Jim and crew based on their assessment of one river. Nevertheless, these are smart guys that know what they are doing though, and are a valuable resource in my opinion.

I have read almost all of the TWRA public reports that I can get a hold of...I have found some great information in them and I respect the hard work of the fishery bioligists. One thing I noticed; it seems some of the supporting information (citations) in the reports is somewhat dated. I have found some more informative and more up-to-date books that would seem a better fit in citing some of their findings. I am not a biologist; but, I know how to research, perform statistical analysis, and ensure validity in my data. With those basic techniques; you can proof or thwart many theories and findings.

I was excited to meet Jim Haberra at Troutfest and to maybe chat about some of his research. I met him beside the trout tank and there was no one around and he was just sitting idly in a chair. I introduced myself and mentioned that I had read several of his reports on trout and fisheries. I was not judging his data or confronting him; I was thanking him and talking about 'this and that' in his reports. Well, he just stood there and looked at my kind of clueless. Maybe it was the heat...? It seemed he did not want to talk to me and I thanked him for his time.

Then, I went to spend about an half hour chatting up with the Parks Biologist and I had a blast learning from his experience!


Trout Stocking

... TWRA released 3000 trout right at the Miller Island boat ramp. Much to my dismay, this was done around 10:00AM; well before the intended release, leaving the trout helplessly trapped in the slough that has been formed there by folks powerloading their boats.. After much conversation with the hatchery techs, I assisted them in netting the trout that had been left to swim in a narrow 1 foot depth bowl and move them to the open river. After several hours, we decided this was quite futile as several hundred remained and would not appear to leave before the generation began.....

This method of stocking has probably been one of the worst miss-management of trout stocking I have ever observed. The fish are so use to schooling together and living in a confined space; that they just sit at the stock site and wait for some fish monger to scoop them up. It seems that the TWRA guys could use some kind of hose or sluicing system to scatter them out in different parts of the river. Even just having a couple different guys net carry them to different spots. I would volunteer!

Does anyone remember if they used to dump them off Massengill Bridge? It seems like I remember seeing that when I was younger and after the new bridge was built.

*I am not trying to bash TWRA! I am glad to have them and I appreciate the work they do for our Wildlife Resources. I just felt compelled to offer my opinion and observations.

silvercreek
06-24-2010, 11:25 AM
To get my two cents in, several times on the Caney right below the dam I have seen trout thrown in the trash cans. Some folks mystify me.

TNBigBore
06-24-2010, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE=MadisonBoats;82255]

RE: TWRA Research


I have read almost all of the TWRA public reports that I can get a hold of...I have found some great information in them and I respect the hard work of the fishery bioligists. One thing I noticed; it seems some of the supporting information (citations) in the reports is somewhat dated. I have found some more informative and more up-to-date books that would seem a better fit in citing some of their findings. I am not biologists; but, I know how to research, perform statistical analysis, and ensure validity in my data. With those basic techniques; you can proof or thwart many theories and findings.

I was excited to meet Jim Haberra at Troutfest and to maybe chat about some of his research. I met him beside the trout tank and there was no one around and he was just sitting idly in a chair. I introduced myself and mentioned that I had read several of his reports on trout and fisheries. I was not judging his data or confronting him; I was thanking him and talking about 'this and that' in his reports. Well, he just stood there and looked at my kind of clueless. Maybe it was the heat...? It seemed he did not want to talk to me and I thanked him for his time.

Then, I went to spend about an half hour chatting up with the Parks Biologist and I had a blast learning from his experience.





I can see how Jim could come across as you have described him. The first time I met him was back in the early 90s, and I was a student picking his brain about his effective method of catching big browns on Abrams that I had heard about. He was not exactly warm and inviting. Jim is a bit of an introvert by nature and far less gregarious and flamboyant than Steve Moore. I can assure you though that he is far from clueless about anything to do with trout biology. He is every bit as knowledgeable as Steve or Matt (I know and have worked with both of them as well). In fact, all of the TWRA coldwater crew are soft-spoken and somewhat introverted until you get to know them. All four of them are very intelligent and knowledgeable though.

As for the literature citations in the reports, I must confess that I no longer subscribe to AFS or any of the other peer review publications and have not kept up with the latest research papers over the past 5-8 years. I do know that Jim and Bart especially kept up with recent trout biology literature meticulously when I worked with them. I would guess that they have their reasons for choosing the citations they use that I am not privy to.

As for the trout stocking fiasco at Millers Island, the stocking of trout is handled by a whole different crew. I knew a couple of the fellows that drove the stocking trucks when I worked for TWRA and UT. Let's just say this, they were nice enough guys, but essentially the equivalent of truck drivers trying to offload their cargo as quickly and efficiently as possible. Many times the trout are in distress by the time they reach the destination and they have to be released quickly. In this case it could have been pure laziness. I do not know.

Wilson10
06-24-2010, 12:14 PM
To get my two cents in, several times on the Caney right below the dam I have seen trout thrown in the trash cans. Some folks mystify me.


Wow...now that takes dumb to a whole new level!:eek:

ChemEAngler
06-24-2010, 12:17 PM
I was excited to meet Jim Haberra at Troutfest and to maybe chat about some of his research. I met him beside the trout tank and there was no one around and he was just sitting idly in a chair. I introduced myself and mentioned that I had read several of his reports on trout and fisheries. I was not judging his data or confronting him; I was thanking him and talking about 'this and that' in his reports. Well, he just stood there and looked at my kind of clueless. Maybe it was the heat...? It seemed he did not want to talk to me and I thanked him for his time.


Shawn,

I too was put off by him at Troutfest. I tried to have general conversation with him before asking a couple questions. He was continually looking around, like he was looking for somebody in the crowd, and basically it was entirely a one sided conversation. So, I didn't even bother with any questions. I had my son with me, so he wanted to look at the "feesh". While we were there another lady walked up and started asking him and another guy questions. They basically ignored her and turned and started talking among themselves. She just picked up a fishing pamphlet and a sticker and walked off.

This was the first time I ever met the gentleman, however if this is the way he normally conducts himself then I cannot fault Waterwolf for his feelings about the man.

tnh2owader
06-24-2010, 12:21 PM
Gentlemen, this is IMO and it's worth just what you paid and that's nothing. But it's my opinion and I'm entitled. Guys when it comes to protecting our natural resources, I feel so many are just plain ignorant and I've always heard you can't argue with ignorance.
So we have to keep doing what's right and try to educate folks on what to do. Whether that's confronting them, turning them in to the
authorities, etc..... We are not relieved from our responsibility of keeping
up the fight. As my signature states, we can't stop standing up for what's right, we can't live with the loss if we do.:frown:

MadisonBoats
06-24-2010, 12:47 PM
RE: TWRA Research

I have read almost all of the TWRA public reports that I can get a hold of...I have found some great information in them and I respect the hard work of the fishery biologists. One thing I noticed; it seems some of the supporting information (citations) in the reports is somewhat dated. I have found some more informative and more up-to-date books that would seem a better fit in citing some of their findings.


Again, I have failed to explain my own post! I believe one should give better details if he/she questions the information of another...Usually, mine are based out of my own ignorance of a subject.

I was referring to the:
FISHERIES REPORT -REPORT NO. 09-03
WARMWATER STREAM FISHERIES REPORT
REGION IV
2008 Prepared by Bart D. Carter, Carl E. Williams, Rick D. Bivens, Keith Thomas, and James W. Habera

Humbly; I looked back through the citations and I can understand why several of them are dated (older). Most of the references involve static information and they are very focused. Also, I did not find many newer resources that were as focused as the ones cited in the 2008 report. I apologize for bringing this topic up incorrectly!:redface:

I do wish they could increase their sampling rates more often on each of the rivers/streams to solidify their overall findings! But, the fellas can only do so much and be in so many places at one time or another! Plus, I am sure state budget constraints keep them operating on a short-string!

________________________________________

..... We are not relieved from our responsibility of keeping
up the fight. As my signature states, we can't stop standing up for what's right, we can't live with the loss if we do....:frown:I could not agree more tnh2owader! Many people are too afraid to stand up for what they believe in and to stand behind what they say! However; the key to making a difference is having the correct TACT! We have to rise above the actions of another and address the situation as an informed and composed person. In doing so; we can approach them with a much more effective way of getting positive results.

Carlito
06-24-2010, 02:05 PM
RE: TWRA Research


Does anyone remember if they used to dump them off Massengill Bridge? It seems like I remember seeing that when I was younger and after the new bridge was built.



I haven't seen them do it for years, but I've sat at my parents' barn and watched them stock fish directly off the bridge into the middle of the river on a couple of occasions. So, yes they did stock there once upon a time.

waterwolf
06-24-2010, 02:48 PM
On two occassions a friend of mine sent Mr. Habera and email regarding genetic abnormalities in rainbows on the Clinch. Not once but both times Mr Habera sharply responded with those aren't rainbows, they are brown trout. Which was stunningly incorrect.

I have sat and listened numerous times to him flatly deny that there is natural reproduction in the Clinch, which is wrong. I have seen him discount pictures and samples of trout fry collected from the Clinch as being nothing more then hatchery fish. Which is impossible since these fish were less then 2" long. He made the statement that the rainbows which migrate up Clear Creek are infertile, until of course myself and Dennis Baxter with TVA raised over 100,000 fingerlings from eggs/milt we collected with others from fish spawning in Clear Creek. He stood several times in front of TU and other groups explaining that the Holston below Cherokee got to warm EVERY summer to have any holdover. Well that is insanely inaccurate as anyone who fishes the Holston knows. He stood in front of Commission meetings and balatantly stated that fishing pressure had no impact on the Clinch, proven wrong by a TWRA funded study.

I could go on and on where just he has made horribly inaccurate statements.

Like I said if anyone wants proof of the natural reproduction going on in the Clinch it is easy to find right now. I stand behind my comments regarding the Coldwater "Biologists". You can't make so many false claims as a paid professional and expect people to take you as educated about what you are supposed to manage.

waterwolf
06-24-2010, 02:54 PM
I hate to be so critical of an organization I have alot of respect for in all other areas. But their actions and views relating to our coldwater fisheries are archaic at best. In reality it should be deemed as mismangement.

All of the tailwaters have suffered because of their attitudes. It took 7 years for them to finally realize that there was natural reproduction occuring in the South Holston. Many of us who fished there had been telling them this for years, before they finally stopped denying it with every breath.

I think the above says enough in a nutshell.

TNBigBore
06-24-2010, 05:50 PM
Waterwolf, I do not know you and hate to call your integrity into question, but I know some of what you are relaying must be exaggerated. If your friend sent two emails with even halfway decent pictures of trout to Jim and he said that they were brown trout, then they were brown trout and your friend misidentified them.

If you read the 1999 to 2008 TWRA trout reports on their website (Jim is the one who writes these even though there are four authors listed) you will see that he does not deny that natural reproduction takes place in the Clinch and Clear Creek. He just differs with you on the extent to which it shapes the fishery. I can in no way believe that Jim would tell you the Clear Creek spawners were infertile or that fishing pressure has no affect whatsoever on the Clinch. I cannot believe he would say there could be no holdover at all on the Holston. I think you are misquoting him to be honest, and I think his written reports will bear that out if any care to read them. I know that he is not in the habit of contradicting his own written reports on a serial basis as you imply.

You paint Jim and his coworkers as buffoons parading as biologists. You are flat wrong. Jim, Bart, Rick and Carl are all hard working, intelligent, experienced professionals. They are human and make mistakes, just like you and I do, but they are not the incompetent cretins you depict them as. You are an armchair biologist with enough practical knowledge about one river to think that you know everything. That is how I see it.

waterwolf
06-24-2010, 10:25 PM
Waterwolf, I do not know you and hate to call your integrity into question, but I know some of what you are relaying must be exaggerated. If your friend sent two emails with even halfway decent pictures of trout to Jim and he said that they were brown trout, then they were brown trout and your friend misidentified them.

If you read the 1999 to 2008 TWRA trout reports on their website (Jim is the one who writes these even though there are four authors listed) you will see that he does not deny that natural reproduction takes place in the Clinch and Clear Creek. He just differs with you on the extent to which it shapes the fishery. I can in no way believe that Jim would tell you the Clear Creek spawners were infertile or that fishing pressure has no affect whatsoever on the Clinch. I cannot believe he would say there could be no holdover at all on the Holston. I think you are misquoting him to be honest, and I think his written reports will bear that out if any care to read them. I know that he is not in the habit of contradicting his own written reports on a serial basis as you imply.

You paint Jim and his coworkers as buffoons parading as biologists. You are flat wrong. Jim, Bart, Rick and Carl are all hard working, intelligent, experienced professionals. They are human and make mistakes, just like you and I do, but they are not the incompetent cretins you depict them as. You are an armchair biologist with enough practical knowledge about one river to think that you know everything. That is how I see it.

I have no issues with you questioning me, and understand how someone can have a differing perspective.

I don't know Carl, and have never worked with Bart. I have been in a shocking boat several times with Rick and one thing that strikes me is how surprised he was at the size of some of the browns we turned on the Clinch. He seemed struck that they would grow to that size, he also was struck by how many stripers were in the river. Keep in mind I was with a TVA crew and they were a little more prepared for what we were experiencing.

I honestly haven't read his reports, but have listened to him speak, argued vehemently with him at meetings about all the above things I mention. I honestly think he is a buffoon. The others I don't have a real basis to make such an assertion. Frank Fiss certainly at times made me wonder as well.

The things those two said at meetings regarding the Clinch quality zone, and other times speaking about the Clinch, Holston, and South Holston really amazed me, in reality I never could figure out how a paid biologist could state the hideously erroneous things they did from time to time. It seemed like they were given an agenda from higher ups and no matter what evidence was proven they had to show support for that agenda.

The last time I spoke with Jim he clearly stated to me and others that they did not believe there would be any holdover in the Holston. He also argued with myself and others that there was no productive spawning going on in the Clinch. That yes the fish tried but were unsuccessful. Well when show evidence of trout fry, he denied it saying they were fingerling stocks. News flash, they don't stock fish that are 2" or less. I can understand I guess, that if they admitted there was successful spawning on the Clinch then the whole put and take idea goes out the window and a more serious management plan must be looked at.

Maybe some of the other members of this forum who listened to him over the years will chime in and support my statements. I certainly am not the only one who heard this stuff. It struck me then, and still obviously bothers me today.

TNBigBore
06-25-2010, 09:41 AM
Waterwolf, I meant no personal offense to you in questioning you. I am glad you did not take it as such. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I was simply coming to the defense of someone I know well and have a great deal of respect for. I spent the better part of four years with Jim sampling almost every river and rivulet in East Tennessee that held trout. Most of the time it was just the two of us. We had a lot of drive time and a lot of time to talk. After listening to coversations between Jim, Steve Moore, Matt Kulp, Phil Betolli and Richard Strange I came to the conclusion that Jim is just as knowledgeable about trout biology as any of the others mentioned. I will leave it at that.

MadisonBoats
06-25-2010, 10:03 AM
Waterwolf, I meant no personal offense to you in questioning you. I am glad you did not take it as such. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I was simply coming to the defense of someone I know well and have a great deal of respect for. I spent the better part of four years with Jim sampling almost every river and rivulet in East Tennessee that held trout. Most of the time it was just the two of us. We had a lot of drive time and a lot of time to talk. After listening to coversations between Jim, Steve Moore, Matt Kulp, Phil Betolli and Richard Strange I came to the conclusion that Jim is just as knowledgeable about trout biology as any of the others mentioned. I will leave it at that.

TNBigBore, I hope you do not take offense to anything that is posted on the internet. I admire your loyalty to a friend and someone you know well. As you know; internet forums are great places to discuss things and debate things. I admire your tact in your postings and they help illustrate reasonable replies.

Waterwolf-Jim, if you would like; you can email me your information and I will try and see if there are some of my friends that could help validate your discoveries. I enjoy this part of fishing and I always need something else on my plate. Also, like you posted...there could be some underlying issues that dictate the rebuttals you have been getting over the years. I would like to know the true results so that I can better understand the river's biology and support proper river management. This is an area that I have very limited experience with and I would enjoy learning more about.

Rodonthefly
06-25-2010, 12:49 PM
As i have tried to keep up with this, I have a few comments/ questions?

One- The statement about the trout in clear creek not being able to reproduce, i call BS on that i have seen those fish and their off spring. Not so much over the past 3 or 4 years as i did when i was in high school. This was before they redid the bottom half of the creek below 441. Don't know if that effected them or what. maybe it's due to the fact that i don't go up in the water shed much anymore.

Two- When I catch a trout and the male milks all over the place when I pick it up or when I catch a female and she drops eggs like crazy. Your telling me that this is not fertal stuff? i find that hard to beleave not then again I don't hold a degree in this field. The only thing that comes to my mind of why these would not be able to reproduce, is because of high flows from TVA and the reds being disrupted from that.

waterwolf
06-25-2010, 01:01 PM
Waterwolf, I meant no personal offense to you in questioning you. I am glad you did not take it as such. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I was simply coming to the defense of someone I know well and have a great deal of respect for. I spent the better part of four years with Jim sampling almost every river and rivulet in East Tennessee that held trout. Most of the time it was just the two of us. We had a lot of drive time and a lot of time to talk. After listening to coversations between Jim, Steve Moore, Matt Kulp, Phil Betolli and Richard Strange I came to the conclusion that Jim is just as knowledgeable about trout biology as any of the others mentioned. I will leave it at that.
You didn't offend me, I have no issues with a difference of opinion. I am not saying the TWRA folks are bad people, just that some of their views are not accurate based on reality. Betolli also made some of the same claims regarding the Clinch.

Madison, you have my e-mail address, if you don't let me know.

MadisonBoats
06-28-2010, 11:04 PM
Caught this little guy today around Miller's Island. There were tons of them!

http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=3&pictureid=484
http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=3&pictureid=483

kentuckytroutbum
06-29-2010, 08:28 AM
Shawn-

When I was on the Clinch by Millers Island several weeks ago, I too saw a bunch of small "fry" that were too small to be "stockers", but then I also saw what appeared to be "stockers."

That photo you posted looks like it had just recently hatched, IMHO.

Bill