PDA

View Full Version : Why is it wrong to post stream names?


duckypaddler
08-03-2010, 08:09 PM
I was reading another post about how older members no longer post and someone mentioned that naming streams was a reason. I have also heard how other small streams are sensitive and can not handle high pressure that naming would cause and would negatively impact the stream. Can someone please elaborate as to why naming streams is bad.

Just trying to develop sound fishing ethics.

Thanks:smile:

BlueRaiderFan
08-03-2010, 08:39 PM
Ducky,

Because then everyone and his dog will go there. It just creates and unnatural amount of people on a given stream at one time. You call a hotspot and then a thousand people show up. People will eventually figure things out on there on without getting that specific. For instance, if I caught a few fish on the WPLP. I might say that I caught some fish in the park on the Gatlinburg side. No need to get too specific since so many people can glean information off of the internet so easily. Having said all of this, I am bad about giving out info on the Caney, but the Caney is so crowded, one more won't matter.

Jim Casada
08-03-2010, 09:27 PM
duckypaddler--Chronologically I almost certainly rate as an "older member," and I've given my views on naming streams in detail in past postings. Basically my view, and it is a carefully considered one where I had to reach peace within before I finished and published my book (it doesn't leave much of anything out, and what is omitted is my ignorance, not an attempt to keep secrets), is that the streams which are more remote aren't going to get but so much pressure no matter how much they are mentioned. It's just too tough to get to them. For example, I'll say right now that the Three Forks area of Raven Fork is speckled trout heaven. Rest assured that won't release a horde of folks to the area.
Also, I'm not sure about the validity of the point about older members not posting because of revelation of secrets. Has anyone actually made posts to that effect?
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

BlueRaiderFan
08-03-2010, 09:39 PM
Mr. Casada,

It is true that most will not venture that far, but don't you think that naming easily accessed streams can put excess pressure on them? Not going against what you say, just curious as to your position on the more easily accessed areas.

BRF

tennswede
08-03-2010, 10:06 PM
I can only speak for myself, but my main reason for not posting as much has nothing to do with naming streams. It's more of the fact that I've gotten tired of the mud slinging and sand pit mentality of a select few. Life's too short to engage in keyboard wars with people who doesn't have any sense of humbleness or only cares about their own opinion, or rather likes to see their own ego blown up.

BlueRaiderFan
08-03-2010, 10:17 PM
Well, I only got into with one guy on the board in the beginning and ended up giving him my camping spot at Smokemont for two days for free, so I hope I didn't run you off! :biggrin:

PeteCz
08-03-2010, 10:21 PM
I completely agree with Hans on this one. Additionally, I haven't posted as much as I used to because I've been way too busy...I check-in from time to time, but have been lurking more than contributing.

Ducky, the subject you brought up is a good one that has been debated on this forum numerous times. Do a search on "naming streams" and read some of the older threads and you'll get a good cross section of what people's beliefs are (or were) on the topic.

The threads from 2007 and 2008 are quite interesting...unfortunately we don't seem to be quite as civil as we were "back then"....
:smile::rolleyes:

tennswede
08-03-2010, 10:22 PM
Blueraiderfan,

No you didn't run me off, nobody has. I just don't post as much due to the reasons I mentioned.

MadisonBoats
08-03-2010, 10:45 PM
I was reading another post about how older members no longer post and someone mentioned that naming streams was a reason. I have also heard how other small streams are sensitive and can not handle high pressure that naming would cause and would negatively impact the stream. Can someone please elaborate as to why naming streams is bad.

Just trying to develop sound fishing ethics.

Thanks:smile:

Post anything you want! You define your online reputation and most posters can understand why and what your posts are intended to do - either help or inform others... Some post to gloat and make themselves feel better... Be yourself and live and learn; but, speak your mind and stand behind it. Admit if you are wrong or not sure; but, always speak from the heart and express what you feel! However, NEVER-NEVER-NEVER call someone out or call/insinuate that they are a liar unless you GOD!:biggrin:

David Knapp
08-03-2010, 10:58 PM
People seem to have this misconception that if one person did really well on a certain piece of water, then that must be the place to be fishing. This can unfortunately be true even of difficult and hard to reach water although to a lesser extent. It is kinda like fishing a tailwater at a major access point. If you are catching fish, everyone else will start inching closer and closer. If you're catching fish then it must just be the spot...no one wants to admit that it might be their skills or lack thereof. In the mountains, people want to find "the spot" and many will go to great lengths to do so.

Personally I find it safer to just list the major stream in the drainage. An example would be fishing Lynn Camp Prong (when legal). Instead of describing how far I walk up the trail, etc., it is much easier to just say that I fished at Tremont. Even saying Lynn Camp isn't that bad so long as it doesn't include detailed step by step directions. If someone wants to catch fish, that is more than enough direction...

My main reason for not getting too specific about where I fish in the Park is that I go there for solitude. At certain times of the year that can include fishing roadside (by solitude I mean that I don't want to run into other fisherman on my chosen stretch of water). If I want to fish in a crowd then I head for a tailwater...

Maurer
08-03-2010, 11:45 PM
Part of the excitment of fishing is finding your own favorite spots and learning the water.

ijsouth
08-04-2010, 12:22 AM
I mentioned on another thread why I haven't been posting; for me, it's been a simple lack of time...my kids are getting older, and thre's always something going on. As for naming streams or not - let your conscience be your guide. I am sort of a small-stream specialist; when I come up to the Smokies, I don't have much time, and I need to find eager fish. Now, if I eventually reach my goal, and some fine day in the future I will move up there permanently and retire, I might get into fishing the larger streams, targeting bigger fish - right now, I just don't have the time.

My "home" stream is Cosby, and I have to say that I've hardly seen anyone else fish it while I've been there. I remember one time I ran into some guys with spinning gear, who were complaining about the "lack of water" and were wondering where some deeper water was. I explained there was plenty of water there, but that given that stream and the time of year, they were probably wasting their time. I was up this weekend, and I did see one other fly fisherman, coming off Walker Camp when I was coming off Road Prong - that was a rarity. The good thing is, the small streams that can't take the pounding are usually also off the beaten path, and let's face it, most people are inherently lazy. For the most part, I've had the streams to myself, unless you count the strange looks I get from hikers.

duckypaddler
08-04-2010, 07:43 AM
Like Mr Casada I do tend to only post things that are a few miles back where most people won't venture. I also don't post things if the person taking me wants it that way. Yes I have seen the posts in the past over more fisherman = more fish, but still want to know how high pressure on a small stream could effect the stream. Has there ever been a case of Brookies getting fished out? I spoke with both Matt Kulp & Steve Moore on this specific issue, and they both said fisherman have little to no impact and that maybe people just wanted the stream for themselves. So what I'm looking for - is there any good reason (except maybe solitude) that stream names should not be posted. While I have not ever gotten into a heated debate over this issue, on some boards naming streams will get you blasted. Just curious if I'm looking over any pertinant info.
Thanks again:smile:

Crockett
08-04-2010, 08:46 AM
I agree with duckypaddler in that most of the smaller streams without roadside access aren't going to be hit by a bunch of folks in any case. You won't see many guys carrying worms and crickets 2 miles up a trail then another mile or two off trail. Those types jump out of the car and walk 50 feet.

I wonder if someone picked some random small stream that is hardly ever mentioned here like say trillium branch or something and then posted a bunch of lies about how awesome it was and that it is an undiscovered brookie paradise. Caught 100 brookies in 30 minutes with a bunch of pics. Then set up a trail cam near the mouth of said stream to see if you caught anyone going up in there. For some reason I bet money it wouldn't work. Mentioning streams without easy access I don't think will make any difference and 99% of people that read it would look at the map and say 'I don't think so'. However, mentioning certain sections or spots on easily accessible streams with good road or trail access that others may have overlooked or not be aware of could increase the pressure in that spot but probably only temporarily and not enough to fish it out but that is just a guess.

David Knapp
08-04-2010, 11:05 AM
I agree with duckypaddler in that most of the smaller streams without roadside access aren't going to be hit by a bunch of folks in any case. You won't see many guys carrying worms and crickets 2 miles up a trail then another mile or two off trail. Those types jump out of the car and walk 50 feet.

Unfortunately, the few that would go to all the effort will do a lot of damage to a stream. If you ever want to hear some stories about poaching in the park, stop by Big Don's in Cherokee (near the trophy section) and just start chatting. He has lots of stories of poaching all over on both sides of the ridge, including such gems as Goshen and Fish Camp Prong on our side of the hill. It only takes 2-3 guys taking a few hundred fish to really ruin things...and they usually went in groups of at least 5-6. The bait guys that are lazy usually aren't a threat anyways because they don't know what they are doing. However the ones that can really fish are often just as successful as the best fly fisherman (if not much more so) and are willing to go to some effort to have a good day just like us...

jeffnles1
08-04-2010, 11:49 AM
I have 2 points of view on this topic.

1) I think discussion of the lack of enforcement and the infrequency of license checks could do more harm than naming streams. A poacher is more likely to be emboldened if he/she believes there is little chance of getting caught.

2) The Smoky Mountains is one of the most visited National Parks in the system (may even be the most visited). Most streams already get a lot of pressure and many streams run right alongside a road or major hiking trails. The more remote streams are not going to get a lot of pressure because most are either too lazy, or do not have the time to hike into them. I'm not lazy, but I rarely have the luxury of time to hike in to a back country camp site and spend a couple days (wish that were not the case). The park belongs to all of us and I seriously doubt if any of us are going to be the first fishermen to ever find some remote stream and drop a line.

While I'm not going to post "go to the 3rd dead Hemlock tree, then find the second big white rock and toss a green weenie just about 6" in front of the rock next to it" (that info would be of little value anyway), I see no harm in saying I was fishing Middle Prong above the Institute, or Sam's Creek, or Walker Camp Prong above Alum Bluff's Cave Trail, or pick your stream and general location. Me and a couple hundred of my best friends will fish that stretch of stream this year.

Adding 5 or 6 more who may be reading this forum and not already know about the secret locations isn't going to appreciably increase the fishing pressure.

Then again, telling every poacher or potential poacher who may read this message board that he/she isn't likely to get caught could harm the fishing experience.

I know about 3 years ago when I first started fishing the park, I found the information here and the people on this board to be very valuable and the folks to be helpful. It was and is much appreciated.

Opinions may vary.

Jeff

NDuncan
08-04-2010, 12:40 PM
On the one hand, giving out too much info may entice the poachers, but at least from my point of view, also spreading out that information may get more ethical fisherman there as well.

I say this because from own perspective, when I would only visit here once or twice a year I would primarily end up fishing somewhere right by the side of the road. Since moving here, following this message board, and reading both Rutter's and Casada's books, I spend more time exploring new (to me) and harder to reach places. What is the end result? One more person spending time on a stream (which I hardly bump into another fisherman anymore since I have stopped fishing roadside), observing what is going on, and taking note of any suspicious activity. I know that no one wants to go their favorite spot and see it crammed with a bunch of people, but without at least a certain bit of dissemination of knowledge, it also keeps out those of us who will report of problems and take care of said stream.

How often do you visit these out of the way places to find a bunch of trash that someone has left there? I know encounter this regularly, so I know that people other than responsible ones are already visiting these places, so it seems to me that getting more responsible people out there is a good thing. And like I said, without the level of disclosure already mentioned, I'd probably still be spending every trip to the park by the side of a road.

JoeFred
08-04-2010, 01:28 PM
Like Mr Casada I do tend to only post things that are a few miles back where most people won't venture. I also don't post things if the person taking me wants it that way. Yes I have seen the posts in the past over more fisherman = more fish, but still want to know how high pressure on a small stream could effect the stream. Has there ever been a case of Brookies getting fished out? I spoke with both Matt Kulp & Steve Moore on this specific issue, and they both said fisherman have little to no impact and that maybe people just wanted the stream for themselves. So what I'm looking for - is there any good reason (except maybe solitude) that stream names should not be posted. While I have not ever gotten into a heated debate over this issue, on some boards naming streams will get you blasted. Just curious if I'm looking over any pertinant info.
Thanks again:smile:

duckypaddler, along those same lines, when I spoke with Matt and Steve recently, Steve offered his opinion that people who haven't already been to the brook waters up high are not going to go now (loosely quoting). I tend to believe that is largely true as well... regardless of how much information is put out there (books, maps, posts, blogs, etc.). The it's-not-gonna-happen sentiment may be just part of today's video game, NASCAR, etc. culture, but I thiink we would do well to volunteer some information that might offer a challenge to perhaps a father and son would might otherwise miss out on a great backcountry camping/fishing experience in this one of a kind Park.

JF

GrouseMan77
08-04-2010, 04:53 PM
I'm personally not big into naming stream names for many of the same reasons Plateau Angler mentioned. And, I really don't mind if other members provide names of streams. I usually find it sufficient to name a general area.

I have answered a number of emails that inquire about streams and locations and really don't mind doing so.

To each his own.

David Knapp
08-04-2010, 05:57 PM
I have answered a number of emails that inquire about streams and locations and really don't mind doing so.


I like the way you roll! Email is the perfect way to clarify information so it isn't out there for all the lurking masses...

sammcdonald
08-04-2010, 08:30 PM
Great Smoky Mountain National Park is the most visited in the sytem by far. Last year was a down year with ONLY 9.2 million visitors

2weightfavorite
08-04-2010, 09:26 PM
Ive viewed this topic on this site and other sites before.. there are no secret streams or spots in the park, period.

BlueRaiderFan
08-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Yeah, but you can definitely get them on the radar by posting about them;)

Jim Casada
08-05-2010, 06:41 AM
2weightfavorite--I pretty much agree, although I don't think quite the same holds true for nearby national forests.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

Knothead
08-06-2010, 09:30 AM
Two things here:
First, I have fished enough in the eastern US to know that where you catch a bunch one time might not produce another time. I have fished spots in the park where I caught fish before and haven't caught anything another time. I fished for several years behind what is now the KOA in Townsend. Never caught anything but one year, I got into a hatch and caught fish every evening. And that was only in two small places on the river!
Second, if I want to find out about creeks and streams in the park, I'll pull Don Kirk's book off the shelf, along with my park map. I'll read, fish and hope the fish cooperate.

pineman19
08-06-2010, 11:40 AM
Knothead,

Good post. There are some spots that tend to produce more fish, but there are plenty of trout in most of the streams in the Smokies. It just a matter of using the right technique, a little luck (a lot for me) and the anglers preference for what type of experience they want to partake in. I don't mind helping some people out, but I do get a little weary when a newbie comes in and wants all the magical answers to catching fish. I learned like you, my first Park book was Don Kirk's and I used it to get started while accumulating all the other books that have been published on the Smokies. I have the topo maps as well. I really enjoy using the books and maps to find new water, a big part of the experience for me!


Neal

Jim Casada
08-06-2010, 01:21 PM
Neal (and John)--If you fellows haven't checked out wht Fred Turner is doing, map-wise, I suggest it would be worth your while. Basically he takes up where USGS maps leaves off with the entire focus being towards the angler.
Jim Csada

JoeFred
08-06-2010, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the referral, Jim.

Neal and John, my first book for fishing the park was also Don Kirk's. Prior to Jim's book, I was using it and one by Jimmy Jacobs (covering Southern Appalachian streams) to begin what was just going to be an online shared database. Then one thing led to another...

In addtion to the Little River system detailed map, I've just made available the same for Forney Creek and Upper Deep Creek. Am presently working on one for Greenbrier.

JF

JoeFred
08-09-2010, 08:01 AM
Just curious... Was there ever a time when there were road/trail signs in the park giving the names of streams being crossed?

JF

Jim Casada
08-09-2010, 11:12 AM
Fred--I'm pretty sure there wasn't. If so, I think I would remember them from boyhood, and I have no such recollections (or photographs).
Jim Casada

Rog 1
08-09-2010, 11:42 AM
I can remember a sign next to the tributary that enters Walkers Camp Prong just above the loop .... it was a wooden Park sign with the name Trout Branch or Trout Creek...there was also a huge maple tree that turned bright red at that point every fall...sadly neight one is there now...would guess a snow plow put an end to the sign and a lack of funds or desire took care of a replacement.

Dawgvet
09-18-2010, 12:18 PM
I just wanted to express my opinion on this controversial topic. I firmly believe that posting small stream names has little, if any, impact of fishing quality. As previously stated, all the fisheries biologists that I have talked with state that angler pressure has little, if any impact on fish density. Steve Moore actually encouraged me to keep some brook trout occasionally as they tend to overpopulate a stream and stunt their growth. I also believe that we need all the anglers we can get to continue our sport as new angler numbers are steadily declining. If someone goes out and catches a good number of fish, they are more likely to continue fishing and even pass it on to others. We need all the numbers we can get, particularly for conservation and political reasons, as our hunting and fishing activities come under increasing fire from numerous factions. I also believe that there just aren't that many people who get excited about working your butt off climbing, scraping, and grunting around to catch a few 5" fish. For those of us who do, a little comaraderie is nice (less questioning of my own sanity). Finally, as much as I do like Byron's message board here, the overall numbers of people who read it are not that big in perspective of the 9 million park visitors each year, and even fewer readers have the time to visit the park regularly for serious fishing on a frequent basis ( I know I don't). Overall, I think much more good comes from helping fellow anglers and encouraging new ones, than from hiding our best resources. I'm afraid that eventually there won't be anyone to fish them at all if we are too secretive.
Sincerely,
Jedidiah Green

pineman19
09-18-2010, 01:43 PM
Jedidiah,

I agree with you for the most part, especially on the smaller streams in the Park. There are numerous books and maps on fishing in the Smokies. I own a great deal of them myself. Things have changed on the forum, people used to share information regularly, but that is not the case much nowadays. Funny thing is, when I go to the Park there are just as many fisherman as before IMO and I have been fishing the Park on a pretty regular basis since the late 90's. To be honest, my biggest issue is people always mentioning the same streams when telling a newbie a place to fish. For instance, if someone is looking for Brookie water, 9 times out of 10 they will mention one or both of the following streams: Road Prong or Sams Creek. I don't fish these streams much as a result, unless you go during the week and at first light it can be difficult to get the jump on these streams. I predict Lynn Camp will be the same way when it opens back up to fishing. Lynn Camp was one of my favorite streams before the restoration project, and usually wasn't that crowded, especially during the week. Once it reopens, I'd be willing to bet it goes onto the highly recommended list for brookie fishing with Sams and Road Prong. It will become a zoo up there IMO since it is easily accessible, etc.

Things have have changed over the last few years, new people, different attitudes, I'll admit I have gotten a little burned out on the forum thing, too many issues crop up when one is simply trying to have a discussion on flyfishing or other topics.

I am no expert on fishing in the Smokies, but I have fished the majority of the major and some lesser known streams as well. Drop me an email if you like and I'll be glad to help you out.

Neal
pineman19@yahoo.com

Owl
09-19-2010, 02:56 AM
" I firmly believe that posting small stream names has little, if any, impact of fishing quality. As previously stated, all the fisheries biologists that I have talked with state that angler pressure has little, if any impact on fish density. "

I'm not sure you're thinking about it like a fisherman would. It's not the effect on the fish populations - although posting a good stream on the internet can lead to worn banks and trails, and more trash along your favorite streams - I think the main concern, at least for me is that on the morning I get to my favorite little small stream, I have to deal with "angler pressure." That is, the "pressure" I feel knowing that the fellow that was driving that still warm car I just parked beside, is probably standing in the creek already and working his way up through it - either catching or spooking all the trout along the way.

Not posting small stream names isn't as much about keeping the stream a secret to protect the trout, as it is about keeping 30 people from ending up there the next free Saturday you have to fish it.

If you post up that the 'luftee is a great trout stream ( which it is) there's no harm there. It's roadside and people already fish it pretty hard - and more importantly there's alot of trail and road access to use. However, if I were to post up my favorite small stream in Georgia for example and even one person got there before me next weekend, I would do just as well to find somewhere else to fish, because it's a stream that comes in from the non-road side of the main creek and there's only one way to fish it - and that is straight up the creek bed. On a small, under-fished creek like that it only takes one fisherman a weekend to make fishing elsewhere a pretty good idea.


I hope this makes sense, but to the big river, roadside crowd it will probably never make sense. Not until you tell a few folks about a great new stream you just fished and go back there in a couple of weeks for another great day only to find out you're not alone anymore on "your" creek. :)


Fishing a small stream is totally different from standing among friends in the Tuckaseegee and I think that's why most small stream anglers would rather not see their favorite stream's name posted all over the internet.

flyman
09-19-2010, 01:20 PM
I'm so secretive I blind fold myself on the way to the stream:biggrin: If I take someone with me to one of my secret spots, I make them swear an oath on a dead indian chief's grave, at midnight, under a full moon, while murdering a chicken that they will never divulge the location.:biggrin:

duckypaddler
09-19-2010, 04:24 PM
I'm so secretive I blind fold myself on the way to the stream:biggrin: If I take someone with me to one of my secret spots, I make them swear an oath on a dead indian chief's grave, at midnight, under a full moon, while murdering a chicken that they will never divulge the location.:biggrin:

My wife's Boss (who is on this fourm) chases the Big Browns. He was telling my wife that he could easily put me on one a year or so back (why I can't figure this out myself), but she said don't be surprised if he want to blindfold you:eek: on the drive there. She was dead serious

While I have no problem posting all stream names, I always respect the wishes of those taking me to place I am unfamiliar with, and don't post then if it's for nothing more than common courtesy. By the same token I think it's common courtesy to pass on info to newbies that will help them "get hooked" on fishing:smile:

As for the Brookie recomendations, I thought people here were pretty hush hush about Sam's ( I know I have gotten plenty of flack on naming that one), and while the fish may be better educated (more fisherman) on Road Prong. One could hardly go wrong there during the right times of year:smile:

BlueRaiderFan
09-19-2010, 06:23 PM
I have a spot on a local river that was shown to me that I will never tell where it is (unless you are a fisherman and in my family or the family of the guy that showed it to me). If you want to go (huge amount of private land right on the river that is available for public use), you WILL wear a blindfold and I ain't jokin'! :eek: I think it's good to keep some spots/techniques private and share with just a few people. It keeps a few places fresh and unspoiled. I've never been to this spot and seen another fisherman, though I have seen evidence that they've been there. I fully expect to go one day and give a nod to a fellow/lady with that look in each others eye of "don't say a word to noone else!":biggrin:

Dawgvet
09-19-2010, 09:52 PM
I understand the "angler pressure" perspective on the subject. Seems to me that becomes a free speech issue in that, if you don't want someone else to know about your favorite spot, then you don't tell anyone. If someone else does want to mention it, then that also is their perrogative. I still doubt your chances of "ruining" it for someone else are very high with the abundance of water in GSMNP. To me it comes down to how each individual wants to handle it, not necessarily a mandated decision. I guess I'm a little too libertarian on some topics (that should get a fight started :)
Sincerely,
Jedidiah

JoeFred
09-22-2010, 08:12 AM
...To be honest, my biggest issue is people always mentioning the same streams when telling a newbie a place to fish. For instance, if someone is looking for Brookie water, 9 times out of 10 they will mention one or both of the following streams:... Road Prong or Sams Creek...
...

Neal
pineman19@yahoo.com

I'm with you Neal. Please see post #6 in the thread Remote Smoky Mountains Brook Trout Waters (http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14467).

Owl
09-24-2010, 06:19 AM
I'm so secretive I blind fold myself on the way to the stream:biggrin: If I take someone with me to one of my secret spots, I make them swear an oath on a dead indian chief's grave, at midnight, under a full moon, while murdering a chicken that they will never divulge the location.:biggrin:


Now THAT is protecting your home water! :)