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adirondack46r
08-11-2010, 12:12 PM
The TVA info says that "Apalachia will be spilling 25 cfs until further notice". Does anyone know if that is one, or two generators?

buzzmcmanus
08-11-2010, 02:05 PM
Check your email in about 5 minutes.

waterwolf
08-11-2010, 02:37 PM
25cfs is a very small amount of water, in fact it is basically zero. I looked and they are running a normal amount of water, or at least that is what the hourly discharge shows. I don't know what 25cfs extra means.

On a side note, I fished with a buddy of mine this past weekend, who is a TVA fisheries biologists. He said that he had solid information that TWRA was seriously considering ceasing the stocking on the Hiwassee. I personally find that hard to believe, but with TWRA's money issues, nothing would surprise me.

ChemEAngler
08-11-2010, 06:19 PM
On a side note, I fished with a buddy of mine this past weekend, who is a TVA fisheries biologists. He said that he had solid information that TWRA was seriously considering ceasing the stocking on the Hiwassee. I personally find that hard to believe, but with TWRA's money issues, nothing would surprise me.

I would hate to see that happen. Not particularly because I love fishing the HI, it is a fun river to fish especially when Hendricksons and Isonychias are coming off. Primarily my concern is that if you stop stocking on that river, the meat hunters that are currently down there will have to turn to other rivers for their meals. Maybe that just means more Tellico/Citico stamp sales, but either way that means one less trout factory for people to fish.

Paddlefish
08-11-2010, 07:22 PM
I attended a meeting in Benton last year held by TWRA. They told us that they were considering going to a delayed havest program on the Hiwassee. In short, they would stock the river full in the fall and winter, with a zero harvest till March when they would go back to general regs. The possibility exists that there would be no stocking in Aug and Sept. Regular stocking would resume in Oct. They stressed that this was only being considered. They are supposed to make the call later this year or early next year. The reason was warm water in late Summer in the Hiwassee. Last year was one of the coolest years for water temps in 15 or so yrs. The water temp in Reliance this morning at 9:00 am was 64 deg. so we will see what happens. This has been one of the Hiwassee's most productive years for quality fish in quite a while , I guess because of the cooler water temps last Summer. The hatches were also very heavy this year. Most dry fly fishermen were really happy with that. If we keep the cool water for several more weeks we should have even a better year next year. We are keeping our fingers crossed.

Knothead
08-11-2010, 07:43 PM
The issue is the warm water that plagues the Hiwassee in those months. Stocking would not be a good idea with that scenario. Keep tabs on www.tnwildlife.org (http://www.tnwildlife.org) for info. Hopefully, the weather will cooperate and this will not be put into practice. So far, temps have been decent. One thing- we have experienced some dry years recently which effects the water temps. The 25 cfs is the water coming down the bypass from the dam to the powerhouse. For info on the river, you can check the Hiwassee Chapter of TU, www.hiwassee.net (http://www.hiwassee.net), for flow information. There is a forum where you can ask questions about the river and conditions. Good fishing!

tennswede
08-11-2010, 08:27 PM
John,

Hope you are doing well, keep posting about the mighty HI for us up "north". It is specially welcome when water temps are given out like paddlefish did. It can save us diehards some serious gas money.

waterwolf
08-11-2010, 10:44 PM
Survival of fish does not make a difference as far when they are stocked. Trout die when water temps reach a certain point. Regardless of whether they are a week old, or 5 years old.

I would also hate to see the Hiwassee go away, I do not fish it anymore, far too many folks for me, but do think it would be a shame for it to disappear.

I have heard folks say it would be a great smallmouth river, well I feel if that were the case it already would be, with the trout as an addition. It is not a great smallmouth stream, at least above Reliance.

I do not think there is any solution to the Hiwassee problems in relation to water temps. It is what it is, and some years it may hold fish over great, and it may do it for 5 years in a row, but then for many reasons everything gets killed. It sucks, but that is just the way it is.

Grannyknot
08-12-2010, 08:11 AM
Maybe that just means more Tellico/Citico stamp sales....

LOL!!! You're kidding right. You don't actually think the freezer fillers buy those things do you??

waterwolf
08-12-2010, 10:04 AM
LOL!!! You're kidding right. You don't actually think the freezer fillers buy those things do you??
It comes free with a Sportsmans License, and they get them by default.

Other then TVA damming up the Little T, the Tellico/Citico crap is one of the biggest travesties to ever happen in this state. Nothing more idiotic then taking 2 gorgeous large freestone rivers which could be managed in a responsible and productive manner, and turning them into trash pits otherwise known as a put and take fishery.

pineman19
08-12-2010, 10:34 AM
Waterwolf,

I totally agree on the mismanagement of the Tellico/Citico areas. What irks my criteria is that the majority of the stamp areas are on Federal Land! I don't have a problem with paying for fishing license and a Trout Stamp, but in addition pay for a daily permit to fish on federal land is BS. I wouldn't do it even if I was interested in getting in the middle of freezer fillers:eek:

It's unfortunate as Waterwolf commented. These are both beautiful rivers and could be sustainable trout fisheries if they were managed for the "greater good" instead of revenue generators for TWRA.

Neal

waterwolf
08-12-2010, 10:52 AM
Waterwolf,

I totally agree on the mismanagement of the Tellico/Citico areas. What irks my criteria is that the majority of the stamp areas are on Federal Land! I don't have a problem with paying for fishing license and a Trout Stamp, but in addition pay for a daily permit to fish on federal land is BS. I wouldn't do it even if I was interested in getting in the middle of freezer fillers:eek:

It's unfortunate as Waterwolf commented. These are both beautiful rivers and could be sustainable trout fisheries if they were managed for the "greater good" instead of revenue generators for TWRA.

Neal

You know I wonder if the Supremacy clause could make the Tellico/Citico nightmare illegal? After all a states laws cannot supercede federal laws, and I do not think Federal Laws would cover a permit which benefits the state, and the state alone.

The only thing I can think is that under USFS lands, that the state game agencies have the managing authority and set the rules.

It bothers the crap out of me as well, the whole permit thing with those rivers. Both of those streams are large enough, that they could be magnificent wild trout streams. I would be willing to wager, that they would be as good a wild trout streams as the Davidson or any other larger mountain stream which is managed with some sense of intelligence.

TNBigBore
08-12-2010, 12:21 PM
The Tellico already is a good wild trout stream in spite of all the fishing pressure and intensive stocking. Once the crowds leave after Labor Day, the wild trout fishing from about the confluence of North River upstream can be very good. There are quite a few very nice wild brown trout in the Tellico especially. I have seen wild fish up to 26" taken from there. The Tellico is a good example of how resilient our wild trout streams can be. As for the Citico (below the forks I mean), it is a beautiful stream, but the wild trout are just not there in numbers like the Tellico. I don't think this can be attributed to fishing pressure or stocking as the Citico receives less than half the stocked trout and anglers of the Tellico. I think that the Citico is just a less fertile stream.

Grannyknot
08-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Other then TVA damming up the Little T, the Tellico/Citico crap is one of the biggest travesties to ever happen in this state. Nothing more idiotic then taking 2 gorgeous large freestone rivers which could be managed in a responsible and productive manner, and turning them into trash pits otherwise known as a put and take fishery.

I'll second that, along with the impoundment known as Indian Boundary Lake. Ask any old-timer who fished Flats Creek & Citico Creek (before the creation of the Citico Wilderness disneyland) how the fishery was back then.

waterwolf
08-12-2010, 12:48 PM
The Tellico already is a good wild trout stream in spite of all the fishing pressure and intensive stocking. Once the crowds leave after Labor Day, the wild trout fishing from about the confluence of North River upstream can be very good. There are quite a few very nice wild brown trout in the Tellico especially. I have seen wild fish up to 26" taken from there. The Tellico is a good example of how resilient our wild trout streams can be. As for the Citico (below the forks I mean), it is a beautiful stream, but the wild trout are just not there in numbers like the Tellico. I don't think this can be attributed to fishing pressure or stocking as the Citico receives less than half the stocked trout and anglers of the Tellico. I think that the Citico is just a less fertile stream.
Imagine what those numbers would be like if there wasn't the horrid weekly inundation of __________ ? Fill in the blank with whatever word/words you feel best.

That river seems to be much richer in terms of insect life etc, then other mountain streams, and has more potential IMO then any of the other high elevation rivers. Every time I am over that way it reminds me again how great TWRA manages our coldwater resources. I am sure Habera and crew think it is wonderful, or have some enlightening reasoning biological reasoning behind their "management".

TNBigBore
08-12-2010, 03:48 PM
I don't think there are many people at TWRA that think the current situation on the Tellico is even remotely wonderful (except maybe the folks working at the Pheasant Fields trout rearing facility). It is a circus and most know it. Unfortunately, there is a 60+ year history of intensive stocking of the river. If TWRA ever even suggested shutting down the Tellico's weekly stocking let's just say there would be more than just the normal public outcry from the citizens of Monroe Co and the surrounding area. I think that most of the biologists look at it as a necessary evil that thankfully has not destroyed the wild trout fishery in the river.

waterwolf
08-12-2010, 04:26 PM
I don't think there are many people at TWRA that think the current situation on the Tellico is even remotely wonderful (except maybe the folks working at the Pheasant Fields trout rearing facility). It is a circus and most know it. Unfortunately, there is a 60+ year history of intensive stocking of the river. If TWRA ever even suggested shutting down the Tellico's weekly stocking let's just say there would be more than just the normal public outcry from the citizens of Monroe Co and the surrounding area. I think that most of the biologists look at it as a necessary evil that thankfully has not destroyed the wild trout fishery in the river.
I would mostly agree with you, the exception being the impact on the wild fishery.

I cannot imagine the fall out if they decided to cease the bucket program at tellico/citico. It would be unsafe to fly fish for decades following such a decision, and the locals would poison the river more then likely.

TNBigBore
08-12-2010, 05:20 PM
I cannot imagine the fall out if they decided to cease the bucket program at tellico/citico. It would be unsafe to fly fish for decades following such a decision, and the locals would poison the river more then likely.

I think you are dead on here. I ran a creel survey of the Tellico and North in the Spring/Summers of 1995 and 96. Let's just say that there is a certain segment of the local populace that feels that they are entitled to their weekly limit (or more) of stocked trout.

I think most people would be surprised how many wild trout there are in the Tellico though. I realized this the first week of my creel survey. I interviewed a fisherman named Walter Babb and proceeded to follow him along a 1/4 mile stretch of the Tellico at the end of one of my shifts. On a Monday evening after a typical Tellico weekend, I watched Walter catch approximately 30 wild trout with some rainbows in the 11-12" range. He was catching fish in every likely run and pool using his nymphing technique. I had assumed that there would be few wild trout in the river. Walter has caught numerous wild browns in the 20" class from the Tellico as well. These larger browns showed up in the fall sampling runs as well with one 26" 6+lb brown sticking out in my mind. I watched another fellow named Steve Babb catch a 24" brown in the large pool that has the water intake for the Pheasant Field raceways.

I think that freestone brown trout are almost immune to fishing pressure. There are just too few fishermen that know how to catch them. I never saw one brown trout over about 12" in a fisherman's creel on the Tellico, and very few wild trout at all. I am not saying that the wild trout would not be better off without the intensive stocking on the Tellico. I am just saying that the wild trout are doing far better than most think.

waterwolf
08-12-2010, 10:42 PM
I have had some great days eons ago on Tellico prior to the slaughter periods. Caught plenty of wild fish, and some decent ones as well. However, I just always felt there was not the number in the river there should be, or could be if the bucket toter brigade was absent.

spotlight
08-12-2010, 11:10 PM
I have had the joy of meeting Walter that story don't surprise me a bit probably just the norm for him.

Grannyknot
08-13-2010, 08:32 AM
I cannot imagine the fall out if they decided to cease the bucket program at tellico/citico. It would be unsafe to fly fish for decades following such a decision, and the locals would poison the river more then likely.

I'm amazed that a similar fall out hasn't happened since they closed the OHV area.

Knothead
08-13-2010, 08:36 AM
I talked with a fellow who is very knowledgeable on the Hiwassee and the issues. The stocking hiatus on the river is for only August and September, when water temps are at the highest. If TWRA does put this in action, it won't be until 2011. The problem is that we have had hot and dry years for 10 out of 12.
Tellico- I'm cheap! When I fish the Tellico, I fish the tributaries (actually, I prefer the tribs) in the summer, and fish the Tellico when the permit requirements aren't in effect. The permit is to pay for stocking, I'm told.
Locals tell me that the H. was a good samllmouth fishery prior to the coldwater influx after the dam and powerhouse was built.

Bfish
08-13-2010, 08:57 AM
The TVA info says that "Apalachia will be spilling 25 cfs until further notice". Does anyone know if that is one, or two generators?

One generator is like 1,400 cfs. They are spilling at the dam; 25 cfs is less than leakage. :cool:

TNBigBore
08-13-2010, 10:10 AM
.
Locals tell me that the H. was a good samllmouth fishery prior to the coldwater influx after the dam and powerhouse was built.


What's left of the Hiwassee between the dam and the powerhouse is still a very good smallmouth stream. I fished it Saturday and Sunday afternoon of this past weekend. We caught several smallmouth, largemouth and spots in the 2-3lb class and many smaller ones. It is tough getting around in the streambed, but the fishing can be very good. I can only imagine what the Hi was like before the dams.

My grandfather used to fish the Hi extensively back in the 20s, 30s and 40s. I don't remember him talking much about the bass, but he used to catch lots of big flathead catfish. I remember a picture of one that was between 50 and 60 lbs. I bet there are still some like that up in the deeper pools of the cut-off section mentioned above.

Knothead
08-16-2010, 04:31 PM
TNBigBore, go to the photo gallery on www.hiwassee.net (http://www.hiwassee.net) and see a couple of big catfish along with some nice trout. I used to fish above the PH but quit since the rocks are slicker than greased glass. Wintertime has some trout migrating upstream of the PH when the water is cooler.

Paddlefish
08-25-2010, 06:56 PM
Water temp at Reliance today was 66 Deg. at 9:00 am. Great for Aug . 25th. No turbines were running.