PDA

View Full Version : JoeFreds New Maps and Stream Species


Crockett
08-21-2010, 01:42 PM
So I recently bought one of JoeFred's maps and first of all I got to say these maps are incredible. One of the best things I have purchased related to fishing in the park. I have spent a lot of time pouring over these maps arm chair fishing and planning future blue line trips. However, when doing this I noticed one glaring thing. I noticed the map showed rainbows going way up sams creek then turning to specks but not till the very headwaters. I sent Fred an email about this and he thought I might post something about it here so that others with the same question might get an answer. Basically the reason was that he used the fisheries map and it hasn't been updated since the brook trout restoration. Fred if you read this maybe you can elaborate more on that.

JoeFred
08-21-2010, 02:19 PM
Adam, thanks. I'm glad you like the map. My greatest regret with the Little River map was not going ahead and showing Sams Creek as it is now and not as shown on the map given to me earlier on by the Fisheries Management people. At the time I thought I was doing the right thing being 100 per cent consistent wth their map anticipating it would be updated soon. I knew about the success of the restoration and that you, for one, had caught brooks all the way done to the barrier.

Later when I showed the finished map to Matt Kulp (a super nice gentleman) at HQs, he and others were complimentary of my efforts but disappointed I had not shown Sams as strictly brook water. It was only then that I learned that they had had to end the data-yielding sampling recently due to funds being cut. Apparently they weren't even able to do a final map update before sunsetting the initiative. You could tell they were all disappointed that this particular research had to end.. including the younger biologists who have the desire and... stamina to rock hop "back of beyond."

JF

Jim Casada
08-21-2010, 04:37 PM
Adam (and Fred)--The maps are a great resource and one every truly serious fisherman owes it to himself to acquire. That being said, inevitably there will be questioanble areas.
Your coverage of the Deep Creek drainage shows a good bit of upper Indian Creek in blue (don't know what that means since it isn't in the fish legend) and then two sections of specks and bows along with a couple of feeders with only specks. I realize that the distribution is based on Park surveys, but I'd love to know both the methodology and the time frame for those surveys. I've never seen a speck in Indian Creek or any of its feeders, but of course that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Did Matt Kulp tell you, or do you know how the Park came up with its distribution map? I've talked to him but just accepted in as gospel without asking. As I begin to look though, mostly at areas with which I have a great deal of familiarity, questions come to mind. Are these the result of actual stream shocking? If so, do they have data on when each stream was shocked? How did they determine exactly where a species began?
I don't think you'll find all three species of trout in the two little creeks coming in from the west just below McCracken Branch and Nicks Nest campsites, respectively. I assume these are Hammer branch and Bridge Creek, respectively, although they aren't marked by name on the map. I've fished both and don't think there are specks in either. Mighty low elevation, among other things.
ONe thing for sure, just checking all of this fascinates me, and there is one source who quite possibly has for actual, hands-on, dead-certain information than the Park (especially since this project has ceased). That's Bobby Kilby. He's fished hundreds of Park streams and carefully documented the species he caught. I don't know whether he'd be willing to share, since he's understandably protective of hard-won data, but I can put you in touch if you'd like.
Meanwhile, see if you can get some hard answers on precisely how the Park arrived at their distribution map, and I very much hope others will chip in on this. collectively there's got to be a world of first-hand knowledge among forum members. One other thought--give some consideration to altering your color scheme a bit. I know nothing about the printing aspect of this, but to me the all trout, brook trout, and no trout colors are a bit too close to the same. How about some harsher but clear colors--dark purple, bright orange, and dark blue (although again you've got a lot of Indian Creek in blue)?
Whatever else, don't take this in a discouraging way. Quite the opposite--give us more as time and budget allow. In the latter context, the more of you who purchase the maps (LRO has them), I suspect the more Fred will produce.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

JoeFred
08-21-2010, 05:11 PM
...Fred...Your coverage of the Deep Creek drainage shows a good bit of upper Indian Creek in blue (don't know what that means since it isn't in the fish legend) ...Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

Jim, it is especially unclear on the Little River map, but somewhat less so on the Deep (see snip it), Forney and three others just out in Little Pigeon drainage, as to what streams in blue mean, but the notes next to the fish images speak to this.

The streams that I did not highlight, meaning left blue, are those that had not been researched by the Fisheries at the time I was given their data. I took the cue from their map to use blue. I'll be certain to make the meaning more obvious in future updates. I will also try some other colors as you suggest. Presently I am forced to use brighter hues to stand out against the base topo maps, the color saturation of which I have little over control, in order for the original contours and labeling (streams, cemetaries and the like) to remain dark enough.

Re. your never seeing a speck in Indian Creek or any of its feeders, I intended to show rainbows (pink) only and did so based on my reading in light of so little of it being researched by NPS. I now see I showed, by mistake, an IC feeder (Georges Branch) with both rainbows and specks (red). Soon I may do a map just for Indian Creek, but would need yours and others' input on species.

Unfortunately time has not permitted me to get to speak with Matt about the important questions you raise.

2/15 Update: Deleted map image previously posted.

JF

Jim Casada
08-21-2010, 06:23 PM
Fred--I'm pretty sure Indian Creek is about as easy as it gets. The entire drainage that holds fish will be only rainbows except for the 150 yards or so below Indian Creek Falls (very close to the confluence with Deep Creek), which would be browns and bows. The falls present a barrier no brown could climb, and unless someone starts some bucket biology, which unlikely since this is frequented by so many hikers throughout the year, that translates to nothing but rainbows.
Keep plugging away, and I hope you have the North Shore streams lined up. If you do all of them together on a single map don't leave out Pilkey and Chambers creeks. Both hold trout.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

JoeFred
08-21-2010, 09:34 PM
Jim, I'm finishing Porters Creek now. Then at your and Joe Street's (Rivers Edge Outfitters) suggestion, North Shore streams are next: Hazel, Eagle, Pilkey and Chambers creeks. Should be interesting developing ... no Fisheries data other than for Ekaneetlee Creek and feeders.

JF

JoeFred
08-22-2010, 08:47 AM
Jim, I believe this change will help explain the blue. Updates of the other maps will have a similar legend. Thanks again for pointing out. JF

http://www.smokystreams.com/mbpics/species_lp_pc.jpg

MadisonBoats
08-22-2010, 09:00 AM
JoeFred's Maps are Top-Notch! I had the pleasure of chatting over email and meeting him at Troutfest. I believe he has tried to address everything a map user could want and then; create it for fly-fishermen.

Good job and wonderful maps! I always try and send people to your website when then need a good map.:smile:

Jim Casada
08-22-2010, 09:27 AM
Fred--That's fair better to my eyes, but you don't have a color for brown trout (although you have browns pictured).
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

Crockett
08-22-2010, 12:23 PM
I think I understand Fred that blue means no data available for that stream/branch or section correct?

I would be interested in a map including Chambers Creek since I just re-read that chapter in Jim's book last night and the thought of being able to fish most of the entire stream in one day was enticing. Especially one that is so hard to reach and gets relatively little attention or mention in most places.

Jim Casada
08-22-2010, 01:47 PM
Adam--Remember that Chambers Creek has two forks, both of which hold fish. I'll virtually guarantee you won't have competition there.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

JoeFred
08-22-2010, 04:57 PM
Fred--That's far better to my eyes, but you don't have a color for brown trout (although you have browns pictured).
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

Jim, I debated dropping the image of the brown for the Little Pigeon River maps in the same fashion I did for the bass used on the Little River map, but just hated to break up the handsome trio of trout. In the event a brown is caught in LPR waters, I will add a color to cover that, but if its in water holding strictly browns, that might well be a first I'm told. Otherwise I would just be adding back the color representing a mix of both browns and 'bows, browns and specks, or all trout as used on the Little & Tuckasegee River drainage creeks.

Adam, re. blue meaning no data available for that stream/branch or section correct?

Yes, that is correct.

JF

JoeFred
08-22-2010, 07:04 PM
JoeFred's Maps are Top-Notch!...I always try and send people to your website when then need a good map.:smile:

Thanks, Shawn!

JF

MadisonBoats
08-22-2010, 07:12 PM
Thanks, Shawn!

JF

There are very few people I stand behind and I believe you are a good man and I think I have a good feeling for what drives you from out discussions... Anyhow; it is enough that I put my reputation behind. Believe it or not; I have turned plenty of money and fly fishing goods to promote things. That is really not my style. I promote what I like and who I feel is putting out the best product/service for people.

-SM

*I know that when my boats hit the market; that they will be backed by honesty, integrity, and a **** good design....:biggrin:

JoeFred
08-23-2010, 07:11 AM
I am in the process of notifying all those who have already purchased the Little River map about the successful Sams Creek brook trout restoration. I am having some weatherproof labels printed to go on the rest.

Avery labels... the duct tape of publishing.

I'm hoping to fish Sams Creek the first time today. If I am fortunate enough to run into one of you there, don't worry, I won't try to sell you a map.:smile:

JF

NDuncan
08-23-2010, 08:20 AM
JoeFred-

I just wanted to say I really have enjoyed looking at the basic map previews you have been putting on your website and the discussions on this board about them. I picked up a hard copy of your LR map on Saturday when I was in Little River Outfitters. I can't wait to get more! Are your downloadable 'basic' version maps essentially in their final version? I know for a while there you were still occasionally updating them so I was holding off on purchasing the whole digital bundle. At any rate, these maps are awesome! Keep up the excellent work!

Crockett
08-23-2010, 08:38 AM
Glad you are going to do some first hand research Fred ;). Doubt you will see anyone up there today. Be careful up there!

JoeFred
08-23-2010, 08:42 AM
NDuncan, I appreciate your kind words. Regarding downloads: Now that I have learned how to create the more detailed 11x17 maps and produce them fairly quickly, I do not plan to do add any more content to the downloadable 'basic' versions. Instead, I may even "dumb them down" some (omit trails, for example) and make them a free download. Drop me an e-mail using the address on the "Contact" page and I will let you know when that is the case. I think it best not to try to keep two maps of the same area since it increases the risk of bad info. Don't need that when it comes to the backcountry. Finally, I may be making downloadables of selected 11x17s available in the not too distance future. The base topo maps would be at somewhat lower resolution in order to optimize the file sizes.

JF

JoeFred
08-23-2010, 09:12 AM
Fred....Did Matt Kulp tell you, or do you know how the Park came up with its distribution map? ...
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

Jim, I have been in contact with Matt this morning. I am paraphrasing what I learned.

All of the sampling was done with electrofishing. Their folks worked in crews of two and literally shocked until they ran out of fish, and then went another 300-400m to verify. When they found possible barriers along the way, or found where a species ended, they noted the point using an altimeter or GPS. Matt concurred with me that the crews have indeed been "back of beyond." He said that when sampling a mixed population, a species range was considered to end when it became less than 5% of the population. He pointed out that this is a floating boundary as it is ever changing up and down with drought, etc.

Matt confirmed that the upper Indian Creek area was not completed due to lack of funding and that some of the areas where I have blue lines were simply not sampled.

Matt if you are reading this, thanks again!

JF

JoeFred
08-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Glad you are going to do some first hand research Fred ;). Doubt you will see anyone up there today. Be careful up there!

Adam, I did get to do some first hand research, but sadly didn't bring a fish to hand. I got to the lower part of Sams this evening in time to "sample" a few pools. I can now personally attest there are specks there. One was considerate enough to flash his orange underside just as the was expelling my dry. I must return when I have more time.

JF

icSpecs
08-24-2010, 12:15 AM
Joe, glad I seen this post today. Wish I had known about these maps before my last trip; I would have had a better game plan and not wasted so much time driving. Which is especially important to those of us who only have a few precious days a year to fish these streams. LRO should have these on the checkout counter, I may have seen them that way.

Kim Razor

JoeFred
08-24-2010, 08:29 AM
Thanks Kim. A key motivator for developing the maps is how precious all of our tiime (and money) is. Before I did the Greenbrier maps, I took my son, grandson and son-in-law up Porters Creek Trail since it appeared at first glance to provide lots of access. Well, they did get about 1/2 hour of fishing in, but we hiked what seemed like another 2 1/2 well above the stream. Knowing what I do now, we would have fished lower PC and lower Middle Prong instead.

I was at LRO yesterday. Daniel has the maps in an almost direct line of sight as you enter their fine building. They now have maps of the Little River, Upper Deep Creek, Forney Creek and three streams in Greenbrier. Since they know each other and work together for the good of the flyfishing sport, I'm pretty certain Byron would not mind my sharing the names of the other area retailers who carrry certain of the maps:

The Smoky Mountain Angler and NOC Great Outpost in Gatlinburg, Orvis in Sevierville and Rivers Edge Outfitters in Cherokee. Harold, Nancy, Doug, Bill, Kris, Brad, Steve and Joe... Just really great people.

JF

Crockett
08-25-2010, 09:07 AM
Well glad you got to see it. Even though it isn't much of a hike it has a really remote feel to the place for some reason. I think it is because the trail gets a bit overgrown after the last thunderhead crossing.

JoeFred
08-25-2010, 11:01 AM
Adam, I felt the remoteness also. A tree has recently fallen across the manway just before the stream. Fortunately previous hikers/anglers had trampled down its leaves and branches enough to where I wasn't too concerned about snakes.

http://www.smokystreams.com/mbpics/thread14340_pic1.jpg
This steel foot bridge over Thunderhead Prong is one of my favorites. I plan to take a shovel next time to transport the dirt/mud that has washed on to the end of it back to from whence it came. This and the fallen tree resting on the cable on the south end is to be expected since the manway, once Defeat Ridge Trail, is no longer on the maintained list.

Jim Casada
08-25-2010, 01:50 PM
Fred--One small correction. Rivers Edge is on 441 just outside of the town of Cherokee, not in Whittier (which 441 doesn't touch at all). They are good folks and have been helpful to me with book sales. For folks on the N. C. side, they are friendly, like Byron, Paula, Daniel, and staff, and they carry and excellent stock. I also happen to know that Byron invited them to Troutfest and they came--that tells you a whole lot about Byron's outlook and his realization that good will works best for all in the business in the long run.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

JoeFred
08-25-2010, 06:17 PM
Thanks, Jim.

JoeFred
09-01-2010, 10:24 PM
I am in the process of notifying all those who have already purchased the Little River map about the successful Sams Creek brook trout restoration. I am having some weatherproof labels printed to go on the rest. ...
JF

Labels are being applied as shown to all Little River maps available for purchase.

If you haven't already done so, I recommend reading the NPS Technical Report on the Sams Creek Restoration and an Assessment of Brook Trout Restoration Methods (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/upload/Sams-Creek-Report.pdf). Extremely informative.

JF

2/15 Update: Deleted map image previously posted.

JoeFred
09-02-2010, 11:15 PM
NDuncan, I appreciate your kind words. Regarding downloads: Now that I have learned how to create the more detailed 11x17 maps and produce them fairly quickly, I do not plan to do add any more content to the downloadable 'basic' versions. Instead, I may even "dumb them down" some (omit trails, for example) and make them a free download. ....
JF

The FREE BASIC MAP DOWNLOADS (http://www.smokystreams.com/downloads) are back. This change is not likely to create any new jobs, but hopefully will "stimulate" more fishing... thereby helping take our minds off the economy occasionally.

Here's hoping readers find the info useful.
JF