PDA

View Full Version : Remote Smoky Mountains Brook Trout Waters


JoeFred
09-21-2010, 08:02 PM
As well as I can determine from reading this forum and talking with National Park Service (NPS) officials, the general concensus seems to be that little or no harm should come from naming streams that hold brook/speckled trout that are in remote areas of the Smokies. CERTAIN PORTIONS ONLY of the streams listed below, which are two or more miles (via maintained trails) from the nearest public road or shoreline, held brook trout when sampled by the NPS Fisheries Management biologists (list not all inclusive). Recently this sampling program ended without being completed due to the loss of fundng. Major drainages that reportedly hold brook trout in certain streams, but that were not sampled include Raven Fork, Noland Creek, Hazel Creek and, with the exception of Ekaneetlee Creek, the Eagle Creek drainage. In the interest of safety I strongly urge readers to use this information in conjunction with, at the very least, the official Great Smoky Mountains Trail Map and Guide (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/upload/GSMNP%20Backcountry%20Map.pdf) and the USGS quadrangle topo map PDFs linked below:

UPDATE 9/23
I failed to realize that whereas two miles or more of hiking would be necessary to reach all the previously listed streams, a number of them were near trails that permit horses. I have since deleted the latter category streams from the list. Sorry for the oversight. JF

UPDATE 9/24
I value this forum and the opinions of its members. Since more than a couple of you say listing these streams is not such a good idea, I dropped them altogether. But since I went to the trouble of helping those who might not have known where they are already, I left the links to the free USGS topo maps that were involved. (You can buy these maps at the main visitors centers.) I'm told you can find specks in a number of streams between 2,000 & 5,000 ft elevation :rolleyes:. If that revelation and the maps tip is still thought to be giving away too much, then...? JF

Clingmans Dome Quad (http://www.dlia.org/atbi/science/park_quad_pdfs/clingmans_dome_s.pdf)
Luftee Knob Quad (http://www.dlia.org/atbi/science/park_quad_pdfs/luftee_knob_s.pdf)
Mount Guyot Quad (http://www.dlia.org/atbi/science/park_quad_pdfs/mount_guyot_s.pdf)
Silers Bald Quad (http://www.dlia.org/atbi/science/park_quad_pdfs/silers_bald_s.pdf)
Smokemont Quad
(http://www.dlia.org/atbi/science/park_quad_pdfs/smokemont_s.pdf)

Jim Casada
09-21-2010, 08:48 PM
Joe Fred--There are lots more to be added, and I'm speaking strictly on personal experience.
Clingmans Dome Quad--Nettle Creek
Cades Cove Quad--Most of Ekaneetlee Creek has specks
Luftee Knob--There are specks well below Balsam Corner Creek
I don't recall which USGS quad covers the upper Luftee drainage, but there are specks in Kephart Prong, Beech Flats Prong, Jack Bradley Branch, and nothing but specks in Kanati Fork.
that's off the top of my head
On Hazel Creek, there are specks in Bone Valley Creek, Defeat and Desolation Branches, upper Hazel Creek proper, and other feeders.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

JoeFred
09-21-2010, 09:06 PM
Jim, I should have given you a heads up. My intentions were to exclude the easy to access waters out of regard for concern for potential abuse expressed numerous times on this message board. I anticipated other members, if desired, naming other remote waters holding specks in areas not sampled by the NPS.

JF

Chuckwalla
09-21-2010, 09:31 PM
I don't think this is a good idea. :frown:

Crockett
09-21-2010, 10:23 PM
I understand your concern John but I don't think this list is going to hurt much when someone can catch specks right next to 441 or on road prong. Even if you hike a long ways to say fish Meigs Post Prong because you see it on the list above you probably are just going to catch rainbows unless you go way the heck upstream above the falls ie 7 miles from where you parked your car at Elkmont hehe. I speak from experience there. Alternately you may just be camping at Smokemont or Cataloochee and catch a speck right there near the camp. So anyone with a topo map can pretty easily tell where they are "likely" to be at but like anything else it isn't always a sure thing.

JoeFred
09-22-2010, 07:58 AM
John, I clearly understand your concern and respect your opinion. The main reason I shared this list is, as Neal said in another thread, is posters always mentioning the same few streams when telling a newbie a place to fish. In the future when we are asked, suggest to the person asking that they do a Search on where the brooks/specks are and let them choose on their own from the hits they get. Instead then, we could move on to sharing the real important information: respecting the species, surroundings, fellow anglers, and for the more generous among us, technique, flies, etc., you know, the real secret stuff.:smile:

Now as callers to the sports talk shows say, "I'll just hang up and listen."

JF

mattblick
09-22-2010, 08:35 AM
I've been lurking for a while and finally posted a couple times this week; this issue intrigues me.

I have been pondering this question: does anyone have reason to suspect that abusive harvesters/poachers would prefer or target specs so much as to go to such lengths to get to them? I tend to believe those sorts target tailwaters, but I could be wrong.

On a separate note, to JoeFred: how far down (campsite number) does your Upper Deep creek map cover? I am leaning towards staying at site 58 or 59 when I head down there in three weeks.

Drifter
09-22-2010, 08:36 AM
I'm an infrequent poster here but fish the Park alot. I typically backpack to many of the streams you've mentioned.....for one reason.....solitude.

This topic always creates tension.

With that said, I've got to side with John on this one. What is the purpose for posting this information? Don't get me wrong, I believe in helping out a fellow fisherman to a degree but....I won't post my favorite fishing spots on the World Wide Web for all to see. I think oftentimes we become comfortable in our little internet community, oblivious to the fact that the rest of the fishing world is peering over our shoulder.

A certain message board coined the term "cyber scouting"....basically finding productive fishing locations without the sweat, ticks and mosquitoes. So this thread provides information at the click of a mouse....that took some of us many years of hard work to gather.

I've got to respectfully submit that this is a bad idea as well.

My dos pesos.

Chuckwalla
09-22-2010, 08:59 AM
While I don't believe in naming non-stocked wild streams and I know that 90% of people will not put the effort in for these streams. However, I believe posting the names of less known streams that are in close proximity to roads is irresponsible. The extra "traffic" will only hurt the resource. Also, I believe the intent of Joe's post was not to list these streams.

I grew up in Maryville running around the Park and I put in a lot of miles and clime a lot falls here in GA, NC, and TN to fish spec streams,because that's what I enjoy. The thrill of the hunt if you will. I under stand this board doesn't have rules about naming streams. Just, I would prefer it be handled on a personal level via email, phone, or taking some one, but that's just me.

benintenn
09-22-2010, 10:46 AM
I've been backpacking for a while now but have only recently picked up fly fishing in the past 3 months. One reason I wanted to learn was because a.) I already loved to fish (spinning, that is) b.) I have seen some beautiful mountain streams in my travels around the park that I always wondered if there were fish in and this hobby gave me the opportunity to find out.

Because this seems to be somewhat of a taboo issue, I will probably wont ask on this board about certain backcountry sites/streams. I'll just have to go out try them on my own. Yes, it does suck for a newbie but oh well, I gotta learn somehow. Most of the people I backpack with do not fly fish so I can't ask them to "show me some good places/honey holes." IMO, its not worth getting people in this community all worked up to try to get a little advice for this newb.

Since the sample was done by the NPS, is this information public record? Could anyone call up the park and get this info?

Jim Casada
09-22-2010, 11:39 AM
benintenn--Don't hesitate to ask about specific campsites and streams. There are pros and cons on this matter, and I'd like to think I've given them about as much thought as anyone. The flat-out truth of the matter is that there are NO secrets in the Park. Moreover, the streams which might really be fragile are, for the most part, at such a remove from the nearest road that over-pressuring them isn't a problem.
I once worried about maintaining secrets but eventually realized that anyone willing to do even a moderate amount of research can get basics (and likely much more) on about any stream. For that matter, my book covers every stream of any size in the Park.

As for the map you mention, it is public record and indeed is shown in my book.

With that off my chest, I will add that I cherish solitude and really prefer not to see other fishermen. But the places I find solitude are back of beyond and I don't figure many will exert the effort necessary to get there. If they do, they are my kind of people and I'm not only willing but happy to share what I know with them.

In other words, in my view you can and should ask questions. I for one won't get all worked up, and if you are worried about getting hammered, I don't think you should be. What I see in this thread is a congenial difference of opinion, and that's what makes this site a delight (it's the only one on which I post with any regularity). Seldom do things get abrasive, and if they do, the most gracious Ms. Paula will tell all of us to shut our cyperspace pie holes. And no one wants to incur her wrath.

Finally, in a moment of self-serving marketing, I'd encourage you to buy my book if you don't already have it. Also, if you have specific questions and still feel uncomfortable asking them here, e-mail me (you can reach me through my web sit).

Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

Drifter
09-22-2010, 12:17 PM
Ben,

I believe the results of the brookie rehab project can be found online...I seem to remember seeing the report on a government website...but for the life of me I can't remember where. Perhaps Jim can provide direction.

Regarding the naming of streams on the 'net.....I'd suggest one other method of finding a place to fish....and this is argueably better that any other. Post up a request to join other fishermen on their backcountry forays. Offer to buy breakfast, drive to the trailhead, etc. Get connected with folks on this website, attend functions, develop a repore. Not only will you learn where the productive water is...you'll quickly learn techniques, fly patterns, etc....and make a few friends in the meantime. It's a trade-of....you seem to be well versed in backpacking so you would have something to contribute as well.

I'm going on a three or four day backcountry trip in the Park next month. You're more than welcome to join me. We will be fishing brookie water.

Chuckwalla
09-22-2010, 01:20 PM
Ben,

I wouldn't worry about being jumped on. Ask away. If I had the info, I would answer privately, not in the post for all the world to see. For me, it's not the sharing of the info, it's the forum in which it gets shared. As for there being no secret streams, as the saying goes, "You don't know until you know." It's a secret to someone. Just say'n


But anyway, I'm out of here. I have the 3wt packed and I'm headed up to Smokies to fish a few of my favs. If you see a blue CRV from GA say hello.

JoeFred
09-22-2010, 03:02 PM
...

On a separate note, to JoeFred: how far down (campsite number) does your Upper Deep creek map cover? I am leaning towards staying at site 58 or 59 when I head down there in three weeks.

mattblick, yes the Upper Deep Creek map does cover campsites 58 & 59. Rivers Edge Outfitters (http://www.flyfishcherokee.com/) in the Cherokee area should have this map when you come down, but you may want to call and have them put you one back. I'm certain Joe, Steve and the others would appreciate your stopping in.

ZachMatthews
09-22-2010, 09:31 PM
There's no sense jumping anyone's case. The reality is our state land-grant universities uniformly publish scientific studies on some of the most remote water in every state. I wrote the "Headwaters" section of American Angler for several years; while I certainly didn't highlight any small water, I sure did turn a lot of it up in my searches for new rivers to talk about.

I located my favorite Georgia brookie stream using a UGA fisheries department study.

Truth is, Jim Casada is right: anyone willing to hike to the way back of beyond just to catch brook trout is not out there to harm the resource.

Zach

ahighlan
09-22-2010, 10:17 PM
I can see both sides of the argument. I think the lack of easy access to many of the "secret" streams in the park helps keep the crowds out, and only the dedicated actually make it out there. I'm not so worried about those people.

On the other hand, if you know of some great hidden spot a quarter mile off a road with easy access, I wouldn't blame someone for not advertising it. I wouldn't. Popular spots get trashed.

Zach, shouldn't you be working on some podcasts?;)

Vern
09-22-2010, 11:01 PM
I learned so much from this board when I started fishing the GSMNP. But I spent alot of time on the easy acess streams trying the techniques I learned on the board, and I have fished some streams because they were posted on the board. Now that I do alot of outtings with MTFF I am a little more selective about who I give very specific information to. I have taken several fishermen to some of my favorite streams to only be disappointed by thier stream etiquette and lack of respect for the fishery. I even had one guy get upset because I was catching fish and he wasn't, and I finally had enough and turned and said " if you would keep your big feet out of the stream and don't stand in the middle of the run looking like a flag pole maybe a dumb fish will eat your fly."
So I guess where I am coming from is that most will not have the skill to make an impact on the fishery, but thay can ruin your day if they are in front of you. so there are some streams I cring when they are mentioned on the board. Spend the money and buy Jim's book. Put the time in to learn the skills needed. And most of the better GSNP fishermen will help out by email.

JoeFred
09-23-2010, 07:11 AM
Since the sample was done by the NPS, is this information public record? Could anyone call up the park and get this info?

benintenn, Jim answered correctly that this is indeed public record. Just to elaborate a bit... I shared with Matt Kulp of Fisheries Management my plans to produce maps of the park showing fish species and asked if he could provide me information on the results of the sampling. He kindly obliged with the only condition being that I credit the National Park Service for providing the data. He was willing to provide me pretty much all the data they had, but because I wanted to somewhat earn the right to the limited information I desired, I asked that he simply provide me a larger version of the map that Jim had reproduced in his great book. It is basically a map of all the steams highlighted with colors depicting the species, BUT WITHOUT the names of any of the streams. I then downloaded the numerous public domain USGS quad maps and one by one identified each stream by name. Now granted, that's a far cry from actually backpacking and boiling drinking water to do research, but I just wanted to point out that on the otherhand, it was not simply a matter of cutting and pasting the information here. And besides that, unlike when we drive across them outside park, there are no signs on the foot bridges naming the streams, nor, IMO, should there be.

Labrador
09-23-2010, 09:45 AM
I hope you sell a lot of your maps.:mad:

jeffnles1
09-23-2010, 09:46 AM
Time and time again, we hear from the fisheries biologists, the park service, and others on this board that 1) fishing has no impact on the overall fish populations, and 2) keeping fish is actually good for the stream.

Now, if fishing has no impact and, indeed, it's good to keep some fish, why all the angst over naming a stream if the increased fishing is going to have no impact?

It's a paradox that I just can't figure out.

Jeff

Crockett
09-23-2010, 10:02 AM
As someone else said I don't think protecting the fish is really the reason some get upset if you name a stream it is the fact that there may be more people there and you don't get it to yourself as much which I can totally understand. Honestly though part of the issue is many people are just simply happier when they have something to whine about. That's human nature. I am torn on this issue myself but throwing out the names of 20 streams like this that the govt surveyed is a far lesser offence than posting a stream that you fished in which you found specks that is not really public knowledge.

NDuncan
09-23-2010, 10:14 AM
I feel like I have said this before on another thread, but i doubt this will be last time someone brings this topic up...

I used to only fish the park when I was here on vacation from texas, and had no real idea about where to go, I always used to fish the places right along the road. When I moved here last year, I mostly did that until I got and read Jim Casada's book last fall. Joe Fred's maps make a great compliment to this text for someone wanting to learn all they can. As such, this season I have spent more time exploring more out the way places. In almost every place I have been, even if I didn't see another soul all day, I managed to find litter, which I remove when I find it. All this to say, there is a flip side to this, there will be inconsiderate people that visit all the most secluded places from time to time, no matter if they are never posted printed anywhere, but when more responsible people visit, we can at least keep ahead of them. No one goes to their favorite place everyday. I understand not wanting to invite the shady sorts of people to your favorite stream or even wanting to deal with questions about the more sensitive areas in more discreet ways such as my phone or email, but when people start talking about how they learned everything because they have lived here all their life and explored it since they were kids, therefore others should have to do the same thing, if they want to know anything about streams, it rubs me the wrong way, because as someone who didn't have that privilege, does that make me less worthy of fishing in the park? Am I not capable of using these natural resources responsibly, just because I learned these things in a different part of the country? Or is it just that newcomers need not apply and go back where you came from?

To everyone else that has been to helpful to me and others like me, thanks. The help that you give, in my opinion, impacts many of the waterways in more positive ways than negative.

Jim Casada
09-23-2010, 10:30 AM
NDuncan--Alas, you touch what is, for me at least, a very sore point. Namely, finding human detritus on even the most remote of streams you visit. I fear that much, indeed most, of it is left by precisely the same folks who are locals who don't want to reveal anything to outsiders.
Most mountain folks are, to a certain degree, xenophobic, and I fall into that group. However, the Park belongs to ALL of us, and anyone who fouls it is trash--only trashy people leave trash. Don't get me wrong, it isn't every son of the Smokies who leaves litter, but far too many do. It's a mindset which infuriates me and which I cannot understand (and certainly don't excuse). Still, it is reality.
Newcomer or not, I'm willing to help, share, and hope that others get some of the same joy from the mountains that I have.
Extending that kind of thinking, I feel quite confident that the vast majority of the folks who participate in this forum are thinking, caring stewards of the environment. I don't, for a minute, worry about sharing knowledge of places, techniques, or anything else I know.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

David Knapp
09-23-2010, 10:33 AM
I have talked to long time poachers in the Park and they prefer those hard to reach brookie streams since they are also patrolled much less...:frown: They can go catch a bushel of brookies and no one will ever catch them...

Grannyknot
09-23-2010, 11:01 AM
Now, if fishing has no impact and, indeed, it's good to keep some fish, why all the angst over naming a stream if the increased fishing is going to have no impact?

It's a paradox that I just can't figure out.

Jeff

Because it's frustrating to hike 3 or 4 miles in to a stream only to find wet foot prints all over the rocks in a stream you could take 3 steps and be to the other side of. The natural tendency for some is to blame something or someone other than your own bad luck, and an internet message board is an easy target.

I've been there many times...excitement during the build up to your trip, a long strenuous hike in, arrive at the stream, and you find that someone has already had their way with "your stream" all morning long. You can go ahead and fish, but 9 times out of 10 on a small stream, you might as well go find somewhere else to fish. Its a big let down and for some people can be very frustrating.

I've tried to put a more positive spin on these situations lately. Its like the old rule with basketball: if one man is being double teamed, another man is left open. If one stream is taken, there is bound to be an un-touched gem somewhere out there.

All this being said....I don't post backcountry stream names any more. I did a little write-up on a certain brown trout stream a while back and received some advice that maybe it isn't the best thing to post its name, although obvious to some.

Crockett
09-23-2010, 12:45 PM
"Dude grab the corn and come on I just saw on the internet there's brook trout in Onion Bed Branch on the Luftee Quad! Thank you Fred!"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/SdaPC5hAmrI/AAAAAAAAjww/gkEaF8VLd00/s400/redneck_02.jpg

hehe sorry I couldn't resist... Yeah that's me and my drift boat at the Wye.

pineman19
09-23-2010, 12:51 PM
Good point Jeff. I own five different flyfishing books on the Smokies, the majority of these streams are mentioned in one or more of those books. I understand many people have their secret spot and that they want to keep it a secret. There could be 500 hundred books and maps on the "blue lines" in the Smokies, but a small percentage of the fishing population will venture to these waters unless they get advice from a friend on someone in a forum, especially if they are off-trail.

Neal

pineman19
09-23-2010, 12:55 PM
"Dude grab the corn and come on I just saw on the internet there's brook trout in Onion Bed Branch on the Luftee Quad! Thank you Fred!"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/SdaPC5hAmrI/AAAAAAAAjww/gkEaF8VLd00/s400/redneck_02.jpg

hehe sorry I couldn't resist... Yeah that's me and my drift boat at the Wye.

Crockett,

Thanks for that laugh man, I needed that:biggrin:

Neal

JoeFred
09-23-2010, 01:33 PM
I failed to realize that whereas two miles or more of hiking would be necessary to reach all the previously listed streams, a number of them were near trails that permit horses. I have since deleted the latter category streams from the list in the original post.

Sorry for the oversight.

JF

PS. Ya got me, Crockett.:biggrin: Tell me. Is it true they manufacture those drift boats in Rogersville?

Owl
09-24-2010, 05:51 AM
I'm an infrequent poster here but fish the Park alot. I typically backpack to many of the streams you've mentioned.....for one reason.....solitude.

This topic always creates tension.

With that said, I've got to side with John on this one. What is the purpose for posting this information? Don't get me wrong, I believe in helping out a fellow fisherman to a degree but....I won't post my favorite fishing spots on the World Wide Web for all to see. I think oftentimes we become comfortable in our little internet community, oblivious to the fact that the rest of the fishing world is peering over our shoulder.

A certain message board coined the term "cyber scouting"....basically finding productive fishing locations without the sweat, ticks and mosquitoes. So this thread provides information at the click of a mouse....that took some of us many years of hard work to gather.

I've got to respectfully submit that this is a bad idea as well.

My dos pesos.

I have to agree with Jon and Drifter, for what it's worth. When the topic of naming small streams online comes up, some folks can't understand what the objections are from folks like us. They think we don't realize that there are maps or that we're worried about someone catching all the fish out of our favorite creek. What we're worried about most of the time isn't the fish in those creeks, but the worn banks that could be the result of thousands of anglers making there way there to fish in a period of a couple of years or less. Until you've seen your favorite trout stream "painted" with brown fisherman trails up both sides, I suppose it's easy enough to figure posting the name and even the location of a small creek can't hurt.

It's not the fishing we'd like to preserve, it's the experience.

Well said, Chuckwalla and Drifter. Good to see you, SK.

JoeFred
09-24-2010, 07:46 AM
Streams? What streams!?! ;) Please see my 9/24 update in the original post (http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14467).

Now, let's go fishing.

JF

NDuncan
09-24-2010, 10:53 AM
Streams? What streams!?! ;) Please see my 9/24 update in the original post (http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14467).

Now, let's go fishing.

JF

If you need to change direction in your map making pursuits, here is a start:
http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae158/Nathan_Duncan/Parkmap1.png

If that gives away too much, you can use the more discreet:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae158/Nathan_Duncan/Parkmap2.png

Hope that helps.:biggrin:

Crockett
09-24-2010, 11:15 AM
hehe I love it NDuncan! Now I finally know where to catch those black ones...

I think I am just going to use some sort of code like transposing letters in the stream name from now on to tell where I am fishing. This weekend I will be fishing "Corney Freek" in the rain... seriously too... I will be taking Fred's Corney Freek map with map cause it shows me just where the Corney Freek trout live.

Lets go fish!

JoeFred
09-24-2010, 02:00 PM
NDuncan, now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout. The only suggestion I have is to perhaps blur the silhouettes just enough that they still appear fish-like. :smile:

JF

NDuncan
09-24-2010, 02:37 PM
hehe I love it NDuncan! Now I finally know where to catch those black ones...

I think I am just going to use some sort of code like transposing letters in the stream name from now on to tell where I am fishing. This weekend I will be fishing "Corney Freek" in the rain... seriously too... I will be taking Fred's Corney Freek map with map cause it shows me just where the Corney Freek trout live.

Lets go fish!


Adam,

Good luck getting your 'Freek' on in the rain! Just remember, if you catch some good fish and want to post a report, please, please protect the innocent:

http://i967.photobucket.com/albums/ae158/Nathan_Duncan/FPP.png

pineman19
09-24-2010, 03:02 PM
NDuncan,

Funny stuff, good to see someone with a sense of humor around here:rolleyes:

Neal

Jim Casada
09-24-2010, 04:11 PM
NDuncan--You've got me a bit worried. That looks mighty like a worn-out night crawler resting on the moss near the anonymous rainbow's anal vent. Tell me it ain't so!
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

NDuncan
09-24-2010, 04:32 PM
NDuncan--You've got me a bit worried. That looks mighty like a worn-out night crawler resting on the moss near the anonymous rainbow's anal vent. Tell me it ain't so!
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com (http://www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com)

No no, no nightcrawlers :eek:.

I think that's a wet badly decomposed leaf and then a piece of a twig, next to that "Thundery" rainbow (all the more direction I'm gonna give, haha) which incidentally was one of the fish I caught on a fly that I tied myself. - The dog-hair parachute adams that you can partially see still sticking of his mouth (i just moved into tying in June/July). So it was an especially memorable trip for me, catching several fish on my first homemade flies - even though they weren't the prettiest, gave me some validation that I was doing something right.

Crockett
09-24-2010, 05:46 PM
Clever photoshopping that adams in it's mouth just remember to edit out the night crawler out next time ;). Turns out I am going to miss my Corney freek trip up to cs 71 due to circumstances beyond my control :(. Spotlight is going to go without me.

Owl
09-25-2010, 01:10 AM
Mock the old folks all you like, but remember us when you pass a dozen people with fishing rods while hiking into your "special" small creek someday and wonder why it doesn't seem as special as you remember it.

gmfishe
09-25-2010, 06:55 AM
Well said Owl.......I have seen it happen on several streams, more so since Al Gore invented the internet.

Drifter
09-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Hey Jeff.....good to hear from you. I hope all is well.

Back on topic.....

The irony of this whole subject... Five (5) years from now the "newer" folks that benefited from the hotspotting of small streams will be the one's complaining about the naming of streams on the ,net.

There are more than a few campsites in the Park that I have recently crossed off my list due to trash and such....that at one time were beautiful areas.

I remember when I began fishing the Park...over 30 years ago....the first thing I did was order ALL of the USGS quads of the Park. There were about 12 of them if I recall. I also ordered a 1st edition copy of Don Kirk's guide book. Still have them. I'd study those maps for hours at a time....mapping out my next trip to likely looking spots. I can't explain the euphoric feeling you experience when you hike a few miles to a place that you previously knew as a spot on a map. The area is breathtakingly beautiful and as a bonus "you catch fish!" What happened to those days where fishermen had the initiative to do the time-consuming requisite preparation?? I realize times have changed and the younger video game, facebook generation has a need for instant gratification. I guess I'm still Old School and maybe that's my hangup.

This topic is kind of like a discussion on politics or religion. You can debate till you are blue in the face, but at the end of the day nothing has changed. You just have to find things out for yourself.

Ya'll catch a few this wekend...looks like great weather to get out. Me? I've got to paint the kitchen :-(

pineman19
09-25-2010, 09:27 AM
Mock the old folks all you like, but remember us when you pass a dozen people with fishing rods while hiking into your "special" small creek someday and wonder why it doesn't seem as special as you remember it.

Owl,

I am not exactly young myself, the man is just trying to inject a little humor into the thread. Part of the problem with these forums is that people takes things way too seriously, flaming begins when people disagree on an issue. The fact is that this forum does not have a policy regarding naming streams. If people wish disclose stream names, that's there prerogative and IMO it's wrong IMO other posters flame them for naming a stream as long as they are within the forum rules. I don't name streams much anymore for my own reasons, but if some people want to behave like moderators I'll be more than happy to go against the grain. I read some of these posts, and some people think they are the only only ones to walk a few miles to a stream. I have walked up to 14 miles in a day to fish a small stream. I have been burned as well after walking a good ways to find someone else on that stream. As the saying go, sheet happens, I had to find another place to fish, there are usually other options.

The fact that people solely blame internet forums for the overcrowding of a certain stream is hilarious. Books all over the place on streams, topo maps, etc. and it's all some posters fault for a stream being overrun.

The streams in the Smokies belong to all Americans and they are entitled to fish them just as much as anyone on this forum.

Have a great weekend, catch some fish, I'll try to do the same;)

Neal

NDuncan
09-25-2010, 04:25 PM
Owl, Any others,

I really was just trying to lighten the mood by joking about it. I certainly don't want anyone to think I don't respect their position and understand why they hold it, even if I don't whole-heartly embrace it. I think there has to be a delicate balance in the way info is passed out. As pineman has pointed out, nothing was disclosed that isn't published in books. And maybe that's kind of a difference, since a book is a lot harder to pinpoint specific information because there's no 'search' function . And I know some are more protective of water outside the park, such as in the National Forests, because unlike the park, the streams haven't been thoroughly documented and published elsewhere.

At any rate, I don't want to argue about it, so I was just making fun of the situation. It doesn't mean I was mocking or attacking people, just trying to lighten the atmosphere. So know that while I may disagree with you to one extent or another, I still respect you and your right to have a different opinion than mine.

Chuckwalla
09-25-2010, 06:43 PM
Streams? What streams!?! ;)
JF

LOL Sweet!

Drifter
09-25-2010, 07:05 PM
Owl,
.....The fact that people solely blame internet forums for the overcrowding of a certain stream is hilarious.

Glad we could provide a laugh.
:biggrin:
Books all over the place on streams, topo maps, etc......

Folks have been pimpin' guidebooks and maps about the Park for years....no problem with that...still requires more effort than the 'net. At least you might break a sweat going to the bookstore. :biggrin:


....The streams in the Smokies belong to all Americans and they are entitled to fish them just as much as anyone on this forum.
Neal

Now that's deep.
:biggrin:

pineman19
09-25-2010, 08:30 PM
Drifter,

Thanks for taking my post with respect. I'll be sure to grace your presence in the same manner in the future.

Carry on, that's what it's all about:confused:

Neal

JoeFred
09-26-2010, 08:18 AM
Ben,

I believe the results of the brookie rehab project can be found online...I seem to remember seeing the report on a government website...but for the life of me I can't remember where....


Drifter, if you'll e-mail me at fredturner @ saintclairmapping . com I can provide you some NPS links.

Hey Jeff.....good to hear from you. I hope all is well.

I remember when I began fishing the Park...over 30 years ago....the first thing I did was order ALL of the USGS quads of the Park. There were about 12 of them if I recall. I also ordered a 1st edition copy of Don Kirk's guide book. ...
...

Ya'll catch a few this wekend...looks like great weather to get out. Me? I've got to paint the kitchen :-(

My first book on fishing the park was Don's. It got me started fishing some new streams and putting together just a list of streams that he mentioned, but did not show on his maps, just for my personal use. The second book I got was Jimmy Jacobs' which didn't cover as many streams, but did show more details in his maps. From it I found some new streams I enjoy fishing still. The third book was one by H. Lea Lawrence. In the very back of it is a fairly detailed pull-out map and list of 36 streams (or portions of them) classified at the time of printing as Restricted Waters....just sayin'.:smile: Granted, the net did come into play in that I learned of and ordered Lawerence's book online. Although they have been invaluable to me, I am not pushing these books, and I have since learned from reliable sources that not all these authors got all their information from personal experiences. This is understandable since there are "so many prongs, so little 'tine'." (I'm on the dark side of Medicare elligibility.)

I have since added to my modest library: Jim's great book (http://littleriveroutfitters.com/store/home.php?cat=995&sort=title&sort_direction=0&page=1) and Ian's & Charity's very useful park fishing books and map (http://www.randrflyfishing.com/pages/store.shtml).

On a more important issue, I hope the kitchen turned out well. I'm in the midst of painting and reflooring a bathroom. Straddling and waddling the commode out of it put me in mind of crawling though rhoddies. My wife thinks the bathroom project will be far more rewarding than fishing.:smile:

JF

spotlight
09-27-2010, 06:01 PM
A hotspot to me is anyplace I can lay my fly. Sure it sucks shadow fishing morons who slap line all over the surface but hey we all had to learn somewhere. I still remember Ray Ball telling me it was a sin using my fly rod the way I was. He gave me a couple of pointers so to speak. Who cares who posts what I'll be sure and next time I go to take pictures of the stream I'm on and see who guesses where I am first. I think you could put 5 people on the same body of water all on different days and have different results.

I have caught one brook trout in the park whoopie whats the big deal? can't we just all get along?

jeffnles1
09-27-2010, 09:54 PM
The streams in the Smokies belong to all Americans and they are entitled to fish them just as much as anyone on this forum.


I think this statement pretty well sums up the entire debate.