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Bran
03-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Here's a link I stumbled across this morning. Kind of interesting but I still kind of hold hope that there could be some out there prowling the eastern mountain ranges:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110302/ap_on_sc/us_eastern_cougar

jross
03-03-2011, 01:26 PM
yeah Bran, KYTime just posted up this link on the thread about coyotes and critters.

It is an interesting article.

I read it with interest as my dad and uncles claimed to see a big ole cat back yeeeaaaarssss ago. I realized the article didn't say there were not cougars, but that the Eastern subspecies is gone. My uncle saw a black cat that upon close examination had spots. His description sounds not like a cougar but a black phase jaguar (?)!

Who was it that said he saw one a few months ago in the Smokies?

ChemEAngler
03-03-2011, 02:40 PM
I know quite a few old timers in the area who would disagree with this article. Personally, I have never seen anything that would even come close to a cougar.

My brother who is in the animal control business and a trapper saw something on the backside of the farm along upper Bull Run Creek a few months back that scared him so severely he will not go back to the area without a gun. He said it was about 6' long from head to tip of the tail and almost jet black. He said it ran into the road in front of him, paused to look at him, and then stealthily ran up the mountainside. He has shot and trapped numerous predators in the area including dozens of coyotes and a couple of bobcats. So, he knows his local animals, and this was something that he could not explain. He has just referred to it since then as the "wampus cat" or "bear cat" because of its color.

Bran
03-03-2011, 04:20 PM
Guys, I don't doubt for aminute that people have seen them in recent years! On this board I think it was Carolina Boy who said he saw one a while back. In any event I didn't mean to re-post what KY Tim had already put up, I hadn't seen that till you told me.
It is interesting though and notice that they say they have confirmed so many of these sightings but they say they're migrants from the Western states or released/ escaped captive raised cats. I know one thing for sure, I've seen one in captivity and there's no way you could mistake it for a Bobcat or a housecat unless you were finishing off the contents of your liquor still just recently.


Here's the link from Feb. last year:
http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13424

jeffnles1
03-03-2011, 08:23 PM
When I was a child here in Kentucky, seeing a deer was quite rare. In fact, one had to go to the western part of the state. Now, they are pests.

There were no turkeys to be seen but now, one can't drive down a country road in the spring without seeing them.

A coyote was just something that chased the roadrunner around the desert on Saturday morning. Now, they are everywhere. I almost ran over one in my car just a few weeks ago.

I can remember when bald eagles and ospry were on the brink of extinction now, they are fairly common sights while out fishing.

The state of Kentucky says there are no black bears around here. That was until 2 years ago when a local school teacher hit one with his car and it was pretty hard to deny the proof. Then, a bear attacked someone in a campground in the southern part of the state.

In the article, they were very choiceful with their words about a specific sub species. They didn't go as far as to say there are no cougars nor did they say there are no breeding populations.

I'm not saying yes or no. I've seen cougars out west and I've seen them in captivity. I've NEVER seen one in the wild in this neck of the woods; however, I would love the chance.

I'd sure hate to be the biologist who said there are no breeding populations of cougars in the Smoky Mtns on the day a mama brings her kittens into one of the campgrounds and there are thousands of photographs.:smile:

Jeff

whitefeather
03-03-2011, 10:38 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110302/...eastern_cougar

Noted from the above article:

" The wildlife service treated the eastern cougar as a distinct subspecies, even though some biologists now believe it is genetically the same as its western brethren, which is increasing in number and extending its range."

The Western variety is alive and well and quite photogenic! The only reason to declare them extinct is to remove them from the endangered speicies list, as has been done. That doesn't remove them from the woods! See below.

http://www.bcdemocrat.com/index.php?id=15&pic=3664&from_id=1

The photo in the newspaper article above looks exactly like the ones I found near the fresh deer kill in my back lot, near the woods. The photo was taken 1.7 miles from my house.

So far, the one that's living in the woods outback isn't causing any harm to farm animals or pets. It now knows the electric fence is there so it jumps over it instead of blasting through it like it did a couple of weeks ago, dragging a deer kill from my back yard.

So I'm keeping my mouth shut about it to the rest of the residents around here. Don't need a possy invading the peace and quiet. Our state park naturalist is looking for volunteers to "night watch" baited areas for the big cats. If they would get over labeling people as being crazy or delusional they'd get a lot more help!

I'll post pictures of it here at the forum as soon as I can get some.

kytroutbummin
03-04-2011, 12:36 AM
there were quite a few trail cam photos around ky of cougars this year. There was actually supposed to be something on one of the news channels about it about a month ago. I was told that there were quite a few photos posted at keenes depot in bardstown ky

dalerio
03-04-2011, 01:20 AM
whitley county ky

http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/Mountain_lion_blamed_for_attack_on_pet_117126958.h tml

Ky Tim
03-04-2011, 01:58 AM
As of now, there has never been a credible shred of evidence of a cougar in Kentucky. The trail cam photos have been passed around the itnernet and labeled as being from various states for a few years now. The only time a cougar has been found in Kentucky was 1999, a young one (kitten) hit on the road in Floyd County and after genetic testing it was determined that its mother was from South America, so it was an escape/released pet that someone had.

In Kentucky, no dead bodies, no trail cam photos and no tracks. If you see one in kentucky you can shoot it and the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife resources actually encourages you to. They want to run DNA test and they are considered an exotic species which means they are not protected.

Heavynets
03-04-2011, 08:03 AM
Just last week a trapper here in southern Indiana called the local conservation officer to inform him that he had just caught a Kentucky cougar. A few hours later the C O arrive to check out the story and sure enough it was a Kentucky cougar.

The conservation officer thought it best to notify the Kentucky authorities that, in fact, one of their cougars had been caught here in Indiana, so he immediately phoned them.

After explaining to them the exact location and time that the cougar had been caught they immediately ask how in the world did he know it's a "Kentucky" cougar? The C O said that it was quite obvious; the cougar had chewed off three of it's legs and it was still in the trap!

jross
03-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Oh, heavynets, only folks from southern indiana would laugh at that!:biggrin:

That's funny though....I might use that today on some students.

Bran
03-04-2011, 10:49 AM
These are all good points, the article mentioned the many trail cams and "no solid evidence". It's just too easy to say a trail cam photo was from some other place or state. The people that have seen them are adamant about what they've witnessed and we know they exist in many states and once roamed here freely so I, for one, have no problem believing they're still here. I just wish to goodness I could see one, but, I live on a 200 acre farm where we've trapped many Bobcats over the last 20 years but I've only ever seen 3 live in the wild. They're pretty reclusive and I can't even find my daughter's house cat half the time! Our house is 1600 sq. ft. and that thing finds a new place to hide every day! How much better could a wild predator do, especially one that blends perfectly with the deadfall leaves and shadows in the Eastern forests? It's just awesome to think that they're out there, possibly watching us as as we fish or walk or hunt in thier territory each day and every once in a while someone is lucky enough, like Carolina Boy, to catch a 10 second glimpse of one.
Whitefeather, I would love for you to get some pics of that panther. That would be neat to see. Good luck!

Carolina Boy
03-04-2011, 12:41 PM
So I fell off the map for a long while but I have been so busy with 2 jobs, grad school, guiding, and fly tying instruction. But this thread brought me back out. Yes I saw the cat in the park, it was like a year plus ago now i think you would have to search the posts to find out exactly. I posted it first here and was shocked at the response as I assumed they were "around these parts" Being from the beach and Navy brat my whole life I had only lived up here (knoxville, Waynesville NC) about 5-7 years. Anyways while it is interesting that there is a great debate I have no doubt about what I saw and i was close, real close going like 10-15 miles an hours just on the tn side of Newfound Gap around midnight after a biblical rain day and I think I passed maybe one car the whole ride over. The gorge was blocked by the slide so I was making my way home, come to think about it it was the night the saints beat the vikings in the NFC champ game cuz thats why i was so late going home that Sunday night (and no I hadn't drank a drop). Anyways the thing was bout 4 feet + in length glowed gold had a huge head 3 foot long tail that hung low tween his hind legs had shoulders that were VERY pronounced and he was right in front of my SUV and leaped from the road to where I was looking up at his arse and I drive a big suv so he flew probably 7-10 feet or so effortlessly. I know everyone has opinions and thats cool but I know what I saw & I'm pretty stoked to have seen that thing.

gutshot
03-04-2011, 05:00 PM
I'm sorry but I have been hearing the black panther and other BS cat stories from the east for years. If there were any numbers (let alone any cats), guys would be getting them on their trail cams and such at least every once in a long while. The link below is a thread from Oregon. Hardly a page goes by without some cats showing up and there is no way guys in Oregon have half as many cameras up as there are in Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Georgia from where all these black panthers and other BS stories originate. There are also plenty of webcams of Florida panthers and other rarer big cats from guys who have trail cams in Florida. Those cats wander out of the Everglades National park and so would the ones in the GSMNP if they existed.

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?t=284686&highlight=2010+trail+cam+thread&page=38

Ky Tim
03-04-2011, 07:01 PM
Just last week a trapper here in southern Indiana called the local conservation officer to inform him that he had just caught a Kentucky cougar. A few hours later the C O arrive to check out the story and sure enough it was a Kentucky cougar.

The conservation officer thought it best to notify the Kentucky authorities that, in fact, one of their cougars had been caught here in Indiana, so he immediately phoned them.

After explaining to them the exact location and time that the cougar had been caught they immediately ask how in the world did he know it's a "Kentucky" cougar? The C O said that it was quite obvious; the cougar had chewed off three of it's legs and it was still in the trap!

LOL Well played! I would tell you why Indian was turned down as the Holy Land but don't want tog et in trouble on here.

Bran
03-04-2011, 10:00 PM
Barry, good to hear from you. I thought you had moved to Grande Bahama and that cabin we talked about last year!

Gutshot, that's pretty strong to just call several people liars right here on the board! I haven't seen one here either but do you think these people have anything at all to gain by making up a story like that?
Of coarse they could exist here, and do as F&G has vilidated some of those sightings but they have turned out to be migrants or escapees. They said that much in the article and if you go to the bottom of the link theres another link to the official website and the studies.

As for the trail cam's they have been captured or claimed to be captured but the pictures were dismissed as coming from other parts of the country and that seems to be pretty hard to prove especially for someone who has no profit to gain by assuming the burden of proof.

whitefeather
03-04-2011, 10:38 PM
Here's another couple of interesting facts, but I'll only speak for Indiana.

Every exotic species in Indiana is required to be, in the case of big cats, (1.) Declawed (2.) Registered with a tatooted serial number identifying the owner.

DNR is quick to dismiss the sightings as escaped pets or illegal pets.

There's only a couple of problems with that!

No cats killled by auto accidents or any other demise have ever been found to be declawed or tatooted with a serial number. Hence, no veternarian records! Hence no exotic registered domestic captives!

In the case of illegal animals, scientific blood tests and other procedures during necropsy, can determine if a cat has been fed any food other than its wild kill, and bone marrow tests can reveal its diet almost since birth. They can tell how the cat was kept and in what kind of cage. Any illegal domesticated cats will show signs of stress relating to being caged or confined. There are a few other tests that can be run to determine if the cats have been captive for any length of time.

The point is, there has never been a confirmed exotic pet or illegal animal roaming free or killed either, for that matter. The evidence doesn't lie!
Purdue University runs studies like this all the time, but their findings are not made public or widely known. It isn't politically correct!

But how many pople will accept the distorted facts given out by a government agency? Answer: about 98% of them. Save, except for those few of us who have seen them with our own eyes.

I really don't care who believes me, I'm not asking for any help or trying to convince anyone of anything. My sightings have been a gift from heaven into the magnificent world that exists outside our human perception. I don't need to prove it.

If the skeptics of this world were to be believed at their word, none of us would be on the Internet right now, because it wouldn't have been invented yet. Neither would have electricity! And we wouldn't be wasting our candles debating the issue.

Knothead
03-05-2011, 08:04 PM
I thought the indigenous cat in KY was the Wildcat. They are easy to spot. They all wear blue and white.;)

BlueRaiderFan
03-05-2011, 08:28 PM
I thought the indigenous cat in KY was the Wildcat. They are easy to spot. They all wear blue and white.;)


and they usually lay down when they see orange. :biggrin:

FishNHunt
03-05-2011, 10:12 PM
I will not comment on this thread as to only say this. If you catch a fleeting glimps of a mountain lion and do happen to manage a photo of it stop and photogragh the surround visible landscapes so that a photo reference can be made to determine the exact location of the sighting. These "interent" TN, KY, NC, GA cats could have been taken anywhere. Now, rule out the western foilage from trees and rock characteristics and you could have a picture of a cat from some state other than where they naturally "belong". However, even photo shop is a great tool that can deminish the truethfulness of the picture. It will forever be an on going debate and until I see with my own eyes a mountain lion in the woods or a dead one on the front page of the Knoxville Times I will stick with my own opinion.

jross
03-05-2011, 11:42 PM
So Gutshot, I take it you don't believel! :biggrin:

ChemEAngler
03-05-2011, 11:53 PM
If you catch a fleeting glimps of a mountain lion and do happen to manage a photo of it stop and photogragh the surround visible landscapes so that a photo reference can be made to determine the exact location of the sighting. These "interent" TN, KY, NC, GA cats could have been taken anywhere.

Good idea. If somebody does manage to get an image of a big cat, immediately take a picture of a recognizable landmark that could be used to validate the picture to wildlife officers. When you take a picture, your camera immediately stores the EXIF data for every picture. In addition to the standard shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and other typical photo information it applies a time stamp to your image. So, if you have a picture of a big cat, and then 2 minutes later (after you catch your breath) take a picture of a recognizable rock outcropping or a barn it would be hard for argue the validity of where the photo was taken. I am not aware of a way that somebody could alter the EXIF data in Photoshop, but I guess anything is possible.

I'm sorry but I have been hearing the black panther and other BS cat stories from the east for years. If there were any numbers (let alone any cats), guys would be getting them on their trail cams and such at least every once in a long while.

Gutshot,
Like I said in my earlier email, I have never seen anything resembling a big cat. However, by brother claims to have seen something similar to this mysterious black panther. I can neither confirm nor deny his sighting. However, as I stated earlier the majority of the people I know who would object to this report are old timers. By old timers, I am referring to men who have lived and worked in these hills for 70+ years. Now, I don't think that my time on this earth, which is significantly less than theirs, gives me the right to say that they did not see something. Especially if you read the reports that it is believed that eastern cougars were present as recently as the 30's or 40's. That coincides with the time frame when these men were roaming the hills searching for their tablefare or moonshine still. All I know is that I have talked to probably a dozen old timers who all agree to have seen a big cat roaming the east TN hills at some time in their lives.

FishNHunt
03-06-2011, 01:40 AM
That is exactly what I was trying to say ChemEAngler. You simply put it in better terms than myself. You can't argue with a picture of a mountain lion when you have 4 or 5 different angles of say Mt. Leconte in the back ground. LOL!!! You however can argue with "oh **** that tree is obviously from TN"... oh no it ain't that sum gun is from Istanbul." or how ever you spell that place. LOL!!

[QUOTE=ChemEAngler;90910]Good idea. If somebody does manage to get an image of a big cat, immediately take a picture of a recognizable landmark that could be used to validate the picture to wildlife officers. When you take a picture, your camera immediately stores the EXIF data for every picture. In addition to the standard shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and other typical photo information it applies a time stamp to your image. So, if you have a picture of a big cat, and then 2 minutes later (after you catch your breath) take a picture of a recognizable rock outcropping or a barn it would be hard for argue the validity of where the photo was taken. I am not aware of a way that somebody could alter the EXIF data in Photoshop, but I guess anything is possible.

Ky Tim
03-06-2011, 12:14 PM
If you look at Mt. Lion photos from Kentucky, you come to realize that the hills and hollers of eastern Kentucky are covered in sage brush! :smile:

gutshot
03-06-2011, 02:04 PM
So Gutshot, I take it you don't believel! :biggrin:

I believe that all the old timers and young drunks I have talked too in my short life have shoveled enough manure about black panthers that corn would grow on rocky top. :eek::biggrin:

Yeah I'm still undecided....but baiting on the Internet is legal.

whitefeather
03-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Only jaguars and leopards have a melanistic (black) phase, so says science.

Mountain lions do not, although their color can range from tawny to dark gray.

Jaguars are native to the southwestern US, Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and the swamps of Louisiana. Mexico still has a healthy population of them.

Leopards were introduced as an exotic species nearly two hundred years ago and traveled the US coast to coast in nearly every circus of any size, not to mention as the "pets" of a few plantation owners in the South.

I would wager a "few" of them escaped, survived, and found breeding mates. They are a very stealthy jungle cat, but can adapt easily to climatic changes (i.e., snow leopards), and most certainly would have avoided man by staying in deep cover or mountainous terrain.

It is not infeasible to assume that jaguars also migrated east as has many other species such as coyotes, mountain lions, armadillos, as well as others.

Just go to Cajun country in Louisiana and ask about panthers in the swamps. See what the people say. They might even show you a "rug" or two.

I personally witnessed a very large, dead, "black as the ace of spades" cat on the garage floor of a neighbor of my high school buddy's uncle. It was shot by the neighbor as it tried to escape from his garage when he opened the door. It was bigger than a mountain lion.

Present were US Army Military Police, Indiana State Police, Bartholomew County Sheriff's Deputies, Indiana Conservation Officers, and a news reporter and photographer for the Evening Republican Newspaper.

My cousin Bill Carter was the cub reporter that covered the story. I'll ask him if he knows of any still existing photos of the animal as they took many. Probably a few mementoes still around on the fireplace mantles of some of those guys who participated in having their pictures taken with the cat, if any are still alive.

The reason most of those cops were there was because they were getting ready to setup deer check in stations, just down the road at the old church. Back then, Indiana had just re-opened the deer season after a ten year ban and all the police agencies participated.

I remember one young rookie deputy asking, after he saw what was there, "What the **** is that?

"It's a black panther ya big dummy, aint you ever seen a black panther? And its dead too, so don't draw your gun and shoot it! one of the older cops said as he started laughing. Then they all laughed.

wizard
03-07-2011, 09:20 AM
OK, i'm incredibly NEW here, but I can throw a few points out that may be relevant in their own ways. My uncle (who was an ADAMANT hunter and outdoors man) swore he saw a bear in MYRTLE BEACH, S.C., about 10 years ago. everyone said he was an idiot... 4 years later, a car hit a BEAR on 501N, just off the airport (which was where my uncle worked, and "claimed" to have seen one) after that incident, SCDNR conducted a survey that lasted many months, and confirmed a breeding population of BEARS in Myrtle beach, s.c.!!!! there are not many, an estimated 80-100 in 3 counties, but they are THERE. On another note, while hunting a 260 acre private tract in charleston, s.c., where I'm from, I had just made a solid bow shot an a nice 8 point, and after a few minutes to let the deer "lay down", I started to climb down. HONEST TO GOODNESS, as I was climbing down in my climber, a MONKEY swings across a tree branch about 20 yards away. I was looking RIGHT at this thing. I myself considered myself "cuckoo for cocoa puffs" at that moment, and figured there was no way I was gonna tell my buddies about this one! a MONKEY, in S.C.? nah, i'll keep that one to myself so the don't put me in a straight jacket! Couple days later, as I'm walking in the local hardware store, there's a pic of a monkey on the window, with the caption "have you seen this monkey?''. I phoned the number on the flier, and talked with the guy. turns out he lived about 3 miles away on a side road, and owned about 8 spider monkeys. one was missing..... Me and the 3 buddies who leased that land let him on the property and helped with the search. "Spooky" the spider monkey was captured that day, and returned to his big chain link home outside his house. POINT is, i SAW A MONKEY. turns out, I DID know what i saw, and i'd bet the guys who have seen these cats, KNOW WHAT THEY SAW too. just cause I haven't seen it, doesn't mean they didn't. No one else saw that @#$& monkey.....

gutshot
03-07-2011, 08:52 PM
God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind, Ray Charles is God?

Circular reasoning.

Circular reasoning is a formal logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy) in which the proposition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition) to be proved (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument) is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premise). For example:
"Only an untrustworthy person would run for office. The fact that politicians are untrustworthy is proof of this."


Such an argument is fallacious, because it relies upon its own proposition — "politicians are untrustworthy" — in order to support its central premise. Essentially, the argument assumes that its central point is already proven, and uses this in support of itself.


Circular reasoning is different from the informal logical fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy) "begging the question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)", as it is fallacious due to a flawed logical structure and not the individual falsity of an unstated hidden co-premise as begging the question is.


Can't fix stupid. Discuss.....

Crockett
03-07-2011, 10:57 PM
Yeah Wizard there is a lot of bears in Coastal Carolina. Over in Eastern NC there are hundreds of them and they have always been over there albeit in reduced numbers but have come back strong in the last couple of decades. They even have lots of bear crossing signs along the roads near forests and such folks hit them quite often.

wizard
03-08-2011, 09:12 AM
God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind, Ray Charles is God?

due to a flawed logical structure
Can't fix stupid. Discuss.....


Personally, i'd have to say that the most flawed of ALL logical structures would have to be, hands down, the "I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist" OR possible the "If they were out there, we'd know it"... any idea how many new species are found each DAY????

I'm not saying they ARE out there mind you... i can't say one way or another, and I have my own scepticism. but I also am smart enough to know not to call someone else a LIAR just because I wasn't standing next to them when they saw it. and odds are, if they're one THIS site, they know a little more than the average bear about the woods and the animals that live in it...

And what good would it do to take a picture as proof, when you've got an internet full of sceptics that will SWEAR you took it somewhere else, or photoshoped it, or played with the dates, or whatever... personally, (and i'm not saying one way or the other what i think cause i'm undecided) If I get a chance to see one, and get a picture of it, the LAST thing i'd do is parade around showing it off. i'd blow it up, put it on my wall, and laugh at everyone who swore they didn't exist without ever saying a WORD about it again. Who wants to be called a liar? As long as I knew, forget the rest!!! besides, wouldn't it be best if it was kept quiet? I'd rather let them live on unknown, than be searched out and tagged and tracked, etc. which is EXACTLY what would happen if it were ever PROVED. Leave em alone if the ARE out there, and if not, my little girls' daschound is just that much safer in the back yard....

Knothead
03-08-2011, 09:46 AM
Eastern NC has a decent bear population and has some big bears, according to an article in a hunting magazine I have on the shelf.
Let me share a story here: In the early 70's, I worked as a sales rep in NC and SC. I was going to the Augusta, GA airport to meet some fellows and make some sales. I turned off the main road toward the airport. At that time, the land on both sides of the airport road were pretty much a wet marsh. As I drove along, a large cat bounded across the road in front of me, no more than 50-60 feet in front of the car. I watched and couldn't believe what I saw. Was that a bobcat? Naaaah! Not in the city limits! I went to the coffee shop to wait. Two guys were at a table next to me. I overheard them talking about hunting. I excused myself and asked them about the critter I saw- Was that a bobcat? They replied that the swamps around Augusta were full of them!
Central Park, NYC, has wildlife- possums, raccoons, squirrels living there.

gutshot
03-08-2011, 10:00 AM
What's so bad about calling a liar what they are, wizard?

Other great lies I have loved to hear.

#1 Smoking doesn't cause cancer.

#2 I don't eat too much I am fat because of a medical problem.

#3 He was a good boy on his way to church when he got shot. The drugs were put in his underwear by someone else.

ChemEAngler
03-08-2011, 10:39 AM
....but baiting on the Internet is legal.



Can't fix stupid. Discuss.....

Gutshot,
I don't know you, and wouldn't mind meeting and swapping stories with you on the river sometime. I just hope that you don't get too upset when you catch that cutthroat on the Caney Fork (or wherever you fish) and nobody believes you because they are not supposed to exist here. Never mind the fact that maybe the hatchery could have somehow by chance raised and released a cutthroat into your river by accident and you just happened to catch it.

Folks, I think I am just going to let this thing die before it gets out of hand. We have enough issues on this forum with threads turning hostile without the unnecessary badgering and instigation from somebody who really has proven that they do not plan to contribute anything significant to the discussion.

gutshot
03-08-2011, 11:40 AM
I carry a camera and DNA kit for such instances. ;)

The eastern cougar was listed as extinct by environmantel groups to curtail reintroduction programs/lobbying in the east by groups that oppose reintroduction of nonative sub species of wolves out west. Both reintroductions examples would use different sub species. If the cats were released in the east they would thrive and when kids started getting eaten the environazis would see a major backlash with predator trapping and bounty programs being reapproved. This was the sole drive to have the eastern lion listed as extinct, to stop any chance of government driven reintroduction.

Read up on the western wolf wars.

I have every intention of adding to any post, but showing liars for what they are is a positive contribution as well, IMO.

Crockett
03-08-2011, 11:54 AM
There are lots of recent sightings of cougars in the smokies. I had a friend see one on the Little Cataloochee trail last fall. They are rare and no one knows for sure if they are wild or released animals but they are definitely out there.

Carolina Boy
03-08-2011, 12:42 PM
Wow, well first of I want to thank ChemAngler, Bran, and a few others out there for defending me, rest assured the rude comments that for some reason have been posted here regarding what I saw are surely as insignificant as the person who posted them. I will say that adamantly professing that I am a "liar" certainly reflects poorly on you mr. gutshot, as you do not know me, my character, or what I saw. You ultimately are making assumptions about me and the entire scenario, based solely upon your own individual opinions, where as the language you chose to utilize and the accusatory comments you make remove all doubt and confirm all of the assumptions people now have of you. I would suggest that possibly you try and gauge the level of importance the discussions you engage in carry, and use that as your guide to determine the type of language you choose to use in these discussions. I feel that this nugget of enlightenment may assist you in future relationships with other people. I am a Clinical Therapist by trade, hence my desire to help folks who very clearly present a need. I will also say that if you search my original post from the sighting that, not being from here, I was unaware that there was even a question or debate regarding the presence of these animals in the park or region, which almost completely negates the possibility that I would make this story up or be “lying” as you say. I was under the impression that there were most likely a good number of these animals in our area, and they just stayed deep in the forest. Finally you may want to seek out Dr. Donald Linzey, a college professor from Wytheville Virginia. Dr. Linzey gives several presentations yearly to support the fact that theses animals are in fact in our region. He does one of his presentations in Gatlinburg so maybe you could attend and argue your opinion on the topic with him, might just be a good time to try out your new discussion skills.

gutshot
03-08-2011, 02:17 PM
Read again. I said black panthers. You are making assumptions about what I am writing.

tn hound
03-08-2011, 04:15 PM
I think liar is a strong word, "mistaken" would be a more diplomatic word in my opinion. So, is the argument that there is a population and they reproduce OR
that a maybe you saw one, but it was one that was released from captivity OR
there is no way anybody saw any kind of big cat?

I believe that people have seen them and also that people think bobcats are mountain lions

Carolina Boy
03-08-2011, 04:56 PM
Well I was mistaken, it seemed that my sighting a year ago or so was revisited as a part of this thread and then it was argued to be false. I have no knowledge of a black panther, I don't know how related a black panther would be to a gold mountain lion, or painter, or any of the other things folks call them here? I will again say that there is no doubt whatsoever that what I saw was no bobcat, this animal was big enough to birth a bobcat, catamount, or whatever those animals are also known as. 4-5 long and a 3+ foot long tail golden in color but my hi beams were right on it and it was no more than 10 feet in front of me and I was going literally 10 mph it's head was as big as a basketball and its shoulders where massive as they moved up above his lowered head.

Crockett
03-08-2011, 05:00 PM
This is a very interesting blog post that pertains to this subject. Jenny is a friend of mine she has been an avid Smokies "off trail" hiker since the early 1980s and you can see Don Casada (Jim's brother) posting in response to her blog at the bottom:

http://streamsandforests.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-church-a-firetower-and-possibly-a-panther/

gutshot
03-08-2011, 05:15 PM
and also that people think bobcats are mountain lions

I think some people who know little to nothing about animal life would believe an otter, fox, coyote, or wild pig was a cougar.

One of my female cousins would call any rock she saw a bear until proven otherwise when we would go on trips to the park as children. Some people want to see something so badly they will lie about it and then claim they are mistaken if proven wrong.

Crockett
03-08-2011, 05:49 PM
I think some people who know little to nothing about animal life would believe an otter, fox, coyote, or wild pig was a cougar.

One of my female cousins would call any rock she saw a bear until proven otherwise when we would go on trips to the park as children. Some people want to see something so badly they will lie about it and then claim they are mistaken if proven wrong.

Well I don't know about your cousin but I can tell you that Jenny Bennett does know the difference. She probably has more experience in the Smokies than most folks in this area and her account is very credible. Most people on this board and fly fisherman in general show each other a great deal of respect. Something that is lacking more and more in the modern world. I have found folks say things about people on the internet they would never dream of saying to their face.

GrouseMan77
03-08-2011, 06:02 PM
Seems like a few folks are just looking to stir the pot around here.

tennswede
03-08-2011, 07:51 PM
Yet another high quality fly fishing discussion. Like I said many times before, the quality is not there anymore.

JoeFred
03-08-2011, 08:51 PM
Could be, but regardless, I think the hosts of the forum deserve to have such opinions and concerns brought to their attention in more of a one-on-one basis.

JF

GrouseMan77
03-08-2011, 09:04 PM
Yet another high quality fly fishing discussion. Like I said many times before, the quality is not there anymore.

I agree. Unfortunately, every time I have a day off to fish there is a monsoon or snow storm. I will try to have a real honest to goodness fishing report up by the close of business Sunday.

501
03-08-2011, 09:10 PM
Baiting has definitely been accomplished, if that indeed was the objective. It should be noted, however, that your credibility has reached a low point from which it will likely never recover.

Lee

buzzmcmanus
03-08-2011, 09:18 PM
I agree. Unfortunately, every time I have a day off to fish there is a monsoon or snow storm. I will try to have a real honest to goodness fishing report up by the close of business Sunday.

I'm doing my best to come up with one also. I was hoping to have one before the weekend, but I just won a bid on a big job that's due Wedn. So I'm just hoping that I have time to fish this weekend.

pineman19
03-08-2011, 09:53 PM
I'm doing my best to come up with one also. I was hoping to have one before the weekend, but I just won a bid on a big job that's due Wedn. So I'm just hoping that I have time to fish this weekend.

If you like fellas, I'll go fishing for you this weekend and I promise to faithfully produce a quality fishing report, pictures included:biggrin: Seriously, I have to fish several days in the Park this coming weekend and maybe Monday if the streams are not too high.

Neal

GrouseMan77
03-08-2011, 10:02 PM
If you like fellas, I'll go fishing for you this weekend and I promise to faithfully produce a quality fishing report, pictures included:biggrin: Seriously, I have to fish several days in the Park this coming weekend and maybe Monday if the streams are not too high.

Neal

Step up to the plate and knock one out for the rest of us.

flyman
03-08-2011, 11:20 PM
Even in places where the animals are known to exists they are elusive and infrequently seen. I lived in Southern California for many years and spent quite a bit of time in the backcountry of the Sierras. I only saw 2, one running across the road at night, and one in the Lone Pine peak basin while cross country skiing. It was feeding on a Big Horn Sheep carcass. Both times I saw them there was no mistaking what type of animal I was looking at. I don't think there is a breeding population in the smokeys, but a random animal wouldn't surprise me. If they knew what was good for them they would high tail it out of here, the populace is armed and dangerous :biggrin:

Crockett
03-08-2011, 11:37 PM
If you like fellas, I'll go fishing for you this weekend and I promise to faithfully produce a quality fishing report, pictures included:biggrin: Seriously, I have to fish several days in the Park this coming weekend and maybe Monday if the streams are not too high.

Neal

Neal I hope the streams aren't blown out. I am going to be up there on Friday and Saturday night fishing near elkmont. Would love to get a pic of a cougar eating an otter for my report. It is raining aweful hard here in Maryville right now though not sure what the streams will look like on Saturday.

flyman
03-08-2011, 11:48 PM
Would love to get a pic of a cougar eating an otter for my report.:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggri n::biggrin:


That may be the funniest thing I have read in a while:smile: Some people still wouldn't accept it, they would say it was photoshopped :smile:

gutshot
03-09-2011, 08:26 AM
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::bigg rin:


That may be the funniest thing I have read in a while:smile: Some people still wouldn't accept it, they would say it was photoshopped :smile:

Rednecks lack the Photoshop gene.

Paula Begley
03-09-2011, 10:35 AM
Alright. That's enough.

This thread is closed.

Please read the forum rules (http://littleriveroutfitters.com/forum/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_b).

Item 6 in particular:

6. Please reread your posts before you post them.
This should go without saying, but you might be surprised. Seriously, read your post before you post it. Think about how it reads to others, and whether it's relevant to the topic. Also, it is not cool to be intentionally offensive. Don't do it. It's also not cool to be sarcastic in order to provoke someone. Don't do it.


Thank you.



Paula