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View Full Version : 64% of Tennessee stocked trout including all brown to go away


Jon
04-14-2011, 05:16 PM
We could be with out 64% of the trout stocked in our state. Yes you read that correctly, 64%. There would be no brown trout at all to stock. If you like to trout fish you should be concerned. Please continue reading.

Proposed federal budgets would eliminate funding for much of what these hatcheries provide to Tennesseans. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has not shared any plans with the State that would demonstrate a willingness to continue support of these facilities under new budgets constraints. It seems that they are willing to let them shut down, despite mitigation responsibilities to Tennessee.

The USFWS is choosing to rely on reimbursements from the US Army Corps of Engineers and TVA for mitigation. These are the appropriate mitigating agencies, but they are not fully funding their mitigation responsibilities. The USACE has offered to pay about 80% of their share, but TVA has not made such an agreement. Without a reimbursement from TVA the Dale Hollow National Fish Hatchery would have to reduce its production by 60%. That would mean no trout would be raised for TVA tailwaters such as the Clinch, the South Holston,Watauga, Hiwassee, Elk, etc.

The bottom line is that if these facilities are shut down, then recreational opportunities and the revenues they generated throughout the state will be severely reduced.

Please contact your US representatives and the Department of the Interior to let them know what you think of this action. Request that the USFWS support recreational fisheries, and request that the federal budget continue to fund mitigation hatcheries until the USACE and TVA fully reimburse Tennesseans for their mitigation responsibilities.
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Additional information about these facilities.....
Dale Hollow National Fish Hatchery is operated by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. It primarily produces trout for distribution into tailwater and reservoir trout fisheries in Tennessee. These stockings are regarded as mitigation responsibilities for impoundments managed by US Army Corps of Engineers and the Tennessee Valley Authority.





Dale Hollow NFH stocks trout at our most valuable trout fisheries such as Caney Fork, Hiwassee, Clinch, South Holston and Watauga rivers. Several large lakes such as Dale Hollow, South Holston, and Watauga reservoirs rely on Dale Hollow NFH production. These large, popular fisheries require 40- 100 thousand trout a year to maintain quality fisheries.

Dale Hollow NFH also supplies approximately 150,000 trout to TWRA’s Tellico Trout Hatchery. These trout are stocked into Tellico River and Citico Creek in the Cherokee National Forest throughout the year.

In 2010 Dale Hollow NFH stocked 1.3 million trout, or 289,000 pounds of trout, into Tennessee waters. That is 64 % of all trout stocked in Tennessee, and 51 % by weight.

Dale Hollow NHF is the sole source for brown trout and lake trout in Tennessee. TWRA hatcheries do not have the required water quality or space to handle these species.

The operational budget of Dale Hollow NFH is $797,000. Dale Hollow NFH is approximately three times the size of TWRA’s largest trout hatchery, which is Buffalo Springs Trout Hatchery.

The total economic output of DHNFH was estimated to be $75.1 million in 2010. That is $94 of benefit per dollar spent on the facility.

As part of their partnership with TWRA, Dale Hollow NFH also raises trout for TWRA at a low rate of $100,000 for 100,000 pounds of trout. This is a very low cost and a huge benefit to TWRA’s trout program. These trout can be stock anywhere in Tennessee and many of them are used for our winter trout program in middle Tennessee.
Erwin National Fish Hatchery plays a less visible but critical role in trout production in Tennessee and nationally. The loss of Erwin NHF would jeopardize production at Dale Hollow NFH, and add costs for our TWRA hatcheries. Erwin NFH raises trout to adult stage and harvests eggs for distribution throughout the National Fish Hatchery System, and provides eggs to two of our state hatcheries at no cost to the State.

Thanks,
Jon

old east tn boy
04-14-2011, 09:52 PM
Is everyone as sick as me of hearing how our government cannot seem to manage OUR money?

And our dear president wants to raise taxes on the wealthy. So what happens when we are all broke because of Washington's ineptness??

My congressman lives about a half mile from me, used to coach Little League baseball against his team (and always won). Hope he doesn't remember that because I am gonna pay him a visit to express my displeasure about reducing or closing hatcheries.

Maybe I should give up fly fishing and start coaching again?

billyspey
04-14-2011, 10:15 PM
TWRA needs to implement catch and release in all trout water or reduce creel limits by 64%
NOW NOW NOW

Corbo
04-15-2011, 12:58 AM
So here we go....

When TVA built these dams a "taking" occurred in that natural river habitat was lost along with the unique fishery it provided. This was a loss to the people in terms of recreation, both fishing, canoeing and other "values".

TVA has previously responded to this loss by trying to augment or mitigate these losses in some locations by trying to enhance what is left of the riverine habitat... an example would be the weirs and grates on the SOHO or Oxygen injection to raise O2 levels below Cherokee.

It is entirely reasonable that the State of TN and TWRA INSIST that this loss of fish habitat, spawning habitat etc. be mitigated with funds to restore, or enhance or sustain a fishery through fish stocking.

Another facet to this situation is that Pittman Robertson funds are collect on the sale of fishing and hunting gear here in TN and this money could be used to sustain these hatcheries. In many States the entire hatchery system is funded with these Federal taxes paid by sportsmen.

I wonder now that we are headed toward "austerity measures" after the Anointed one spent a trillion bucks "stimulating" our economy how much of that money went to repair of fish hatcheries?

I would hope that National TU has the guts to stand up to the exalted one who they supported for president in the last election?

Don't blame this on conservatives.... blame it on those who have a social agenda that doesn't care about those who hunt, fish and enjoy the outdoors... This is clearly a situation where city people out vote country people.. some want to fish and others want to get it in the store with an EBT card.

waterwolf
04-15-2011, 08:09 AM
There is a positive, and that is the majority of our fish do not come from federal hatcheries.

In all honesty the feds should not be in the business of raising fish. I do not recall reading in the constitution that the govt should provide ample fish for the country. Maybe I missed that section.

Personally I think far too many americans rely on the govt for services, money, or something else to make their lives better. What happened to the americans who wanted govt to stay out of their lives and do only the things which they should do (military etc). If we don't get this insane spending under control it will destroy this nation, and is already to some degree.

TWRA which is funded by us, should be the ones raising fish for stocking purposes and the people who utilize the waters where these fish are stocked should use self control and understand that it isn't necessarily a grocery store.

If you want more fish stocked, create a foundation to raise money to fund hatcheries in this state on the state level. Let the feds fold up. ASk yourself why do we need a US fish and wildlife service? Why does the federal govt need to stock fish?

DBKSTONE2
04-15-2011, 11:52 AM
I think Waterwolf has a point. I don't know why we need Fed help on the stocking. I purchase a sportsman's license every year and the $136 should be plenty to cover my wildlife activity. I have not kept a trout in 2 1/2 years and I would hazard to guess that the mortality rate of a trout caught with a fly rod is less than 1 fatality in 250 fish caught (assume reasonable catch release practice). So I doubt I have killed more than 5 fish in 2 years. I enjoy fishing and want the next guy to have a shot at the same experience tomorrow, next week, or next year (luck will out). We need to conserve our resource not burn through our "seed corn".

DBK

Streamhound
04-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Waterwolf
Thanks for your perspective. I tend to agree with you and see the question about what is the role of govt being asked many more times before the federal spending gets controlled.

mattblick
04-15-2011, 02:19 PM
There is a positive, and that is the majority of our fish do not come from federal hatcheries.

In all honesty the feds should not be in the business of raising fish. I do not recall reading in the constitution that the govt should provide ample fish for the country. Maybe I missed that section.

Personally I think far too many americans rely on the govt for services, money, or something else to make their lives better. What happened to the americans who wanted govt to stay out of their lives and do only the things which they should do (military etc). If we don't get this insane spending under control it will destroy this nation, and is already to some degree.

TWRA which is funded by us, should be the ones raising fish for stocking purposes and the people who utilize the waters where these fish are stocked should use self control and understand that it isn't necessarily a grocery store.

If you want more fish stocked, create a foundation to raise money to fund hatcheries in this state on the state level. Let the feds fold up. ASk yourself why do we need a US fish and wildlife service? Why does the federal govt need to stock fish?

Well Put! The Fed gets its hands in far too many things. Let TN managage TN fisheries. I give either TN or NC non-resident license funds every year, and a whole lot of other tourists do as well. If TN needs Fed money to stock rivers, someone needs to look at how the state is managing their money. My 2 cents.

-Matt-

old east tn boy
04-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Folks, the good state of Tennessee is broke too, if you can believe our new governor. Without money to build new or take over existing hatcheries, there isn't going to be any move in the state legislature to do this. Even if they could come up with funds from somewhere you can darn well bet it won't be spent on fish!

So we are back to losing 64% of stockers.

DBKSTONE2
04-15-2011, 09:42 PM
Folks, the good state of Tennessee is broke too, if you can believe our new governor. Without money to build new or take over existing hatcheries, there isn't going to be any move in the state legislature to do this. Even if they could come up with funds from somewhere you can darn well bet it won't be spent on fish!

So we are back to losing 64% of stockers.

If this is the case the TWRA needs to change the creel limit to 2 fish per day and raise the $180 ticket to public hanging.:biggrin:

waterwolf
04-15-2011, 09:49 PM
In reality we should be a society that can have a resource which we can not deplete, afterall we aren't unfamiliar with how to properly manage things so they can sustain themselves.

It is a sad testament to this country, and this state if we have to depend on any govt to keep things like this going. That we can't regulate ourselves, and have a viable fishery without the aid of the govt.

As I said earlier, if folks viewed the trout in our rivers as recreation and enjoyed them for that, rather then using the river as a grocery store then hatcheries would be useless.

Maybe if TWRA actually invested money in worthwhile projects, rather then blowing it on Elk, and other things which are pointless there could be more resources to spend on fish stockings.

It is past time for the people in this country to realize the govt is not the answer. That goes for healthcare, retirement, and income.

It's called personal responsibility, we all would be better off if we practiced more of it.

Honestly, it may be a good thing for this to happen. Maybe when the rivers are fished out the "shoppers" will realize how selfish they have been, and mature.

silvercreek
04-16-2011, 08:33 AM
History would suggest we do not manage our resources properly. Without stirring up the argument as to whether the Clinch has a reproducing population of trout, virtually all the tailwaters and streams do not until you get to the mountains of east TN. Seems to me those who like to fish for trout are going to put a lot of pressure on those wild streams if there are no other places to fish. I'm thinking the hatcheries pay for themselves, but may be wrong.

FishNHunt
04-16-2011, 10:11 AM
"If this is the case the TWRA needs to change the creel limit to 2 fish per day and raise the $180 ticket to public hanging."

Sell tickets to the public hanging like they did in the old days. Make a fortune.

fourx
04-16-2011, 11:54 AM
The fewer the fish, the bigger the fish.

4X

silvercreek
04-16-2011, 12:09 PM
Without natural reproduction, in a few years you have no fish.

whitefeather
04-16-2011, 03:24 PM
Some very good points by a number of folks here on the forum. And Waterwolf is correct! The federal government has gotten its dirty little hands into too many things. And what happens when it does? Well, whatever their hands are into, in the end it gets totally screwed up and goes belly up financially. Historical fact.

And if one department of government doesn't do it, along comes another one that will. Need I make a list? No, the word "everything" should describe it.

This might be a good time to let the feds bail and then lock the **** door behind them. Don't ever let them back in. And that is going to take monumental pressure from Tennessee folks on their legislatures to make it happen. And creative ideas to take up the slack in the way of stocking facilities. Then file a federal lawsuit demanding the mitigation money for the loss of your rivers to TVA lakes that they agreed to pay. Follow that up with a state moratorium on collecting Pittman-Robinson funds for the feds.

It's the same everywhere, every state is or is **** close to being broke.

Anytime you let the thieves run away with your money, they will. And that's what the legislatures in most states are, a bunch of thieves that only know how to spend, spend, spend, everybody else's hard earned money yet offer no long term solutions that enhance your personal freedoms and your worth or your job opportunities.

And by the way, in Indiana our governor and his crew have even learned how to steal the Pittman-Robinson funds also. Among other things.

The first $120 I spend in Tennessee next week will be for fishing licenses and permits for the Tellico-Citico areas, as a non-resident. And I sure don't eat $120 worth of trout while I am there! LOL! I don't generally even fish in the stocked areas. So I guess I better take home what I can, if I'm lucky.

But I enjoy Tennessee and the hospitality of its people, so that's just the way it is and to me it's worth it.

All the solutions to the problems we face as Americans, Tennesseans, Hoosiers, Ohioians, Kentuckians, Virginians, and North Carolinians and everywhere else, require some radical thinking and radical solutions to the problems, because the normal solutions that have already been tried have failed. It's just stupid to keep applying the same fixes that haven't worked before.

If you were fishing on a stream that suffered a total fish kill and didn't catch any fish, would you continue to tie on different flies hoping your luck would change?

Rodonthefly
04-16-2011, 06:33 PM
Wow that was pretty deep thinkin there whitefeather.

What I don't understand is why in the sam **** is it a fed controled hatchrey anyways? I wish the state of Tennessee would take over it. After all our rivers and parkks tend to draw in. A lot of out of state folks. Why this wouldn't be viewed as a way of revinue I don't know? You can't tell me it takes that much money for a hatchrey.
Also why I'm on the subject of things why not start charging folks to visit the park. Why close it down, again so much revinue would be lost! If they charged 5 or 10 bucks are car that would help cover the cost of running it, plus the state and small bess would profit from it unsted of loosing money!

I have always felt that the federal goverment doesn't give a crap about nothing but making the rich richer and the pooer pooer! It's time for the American people to wake up and reclaim this great nation!
That's all I'm done!
Rod

Corbo
04-16-2011, 09:18 PM
Our Federal Government was never meant to become the monster it is today; that's for certain.

I would love to see TN leave the Union.... and I bet a lot of folks here feel the same. Our Federal Government only worries about their own bloated paychecks and pensions and benefits.... we should all live so high on the hog.

whitefeather
04-16-2011, 09:24 PM
Rod,

You nailed it!

The promise of the feds never to charge a entrance fee to GSMNP is one of the few promises that has been kept...for now, anyway.

I love Tennessee. You guys have a quality stocking program, in many, many places. It'd be a shame...no, a crime if you were forced to give it up because the US Fish and Wildlife Department is having a hissy fit over other departments not paying their fair share.

Please don't let them get away with this!

Organize and fight it! Take over your hatcheries at the state level or even outsource them on contract to private enterprise. Elect proactive sportsman representatives from amoungst your own ranks to promote your own economy, fishing and outdoor recreation.

Let them (USFWS) take proper legal action to resolve the problem and not a cop out way of withholding money they TOOK from you in the first place in taxes, to make everybody else suffer on down the line by having to give up things like hatcheries.

These people know this. They are just are bunch of vindictive a$$XXes. They think they are entitled to steal your money (taxes) and tell you they will share it back with you, if you're lucky. For every ten cents the feds spend, your children and grandchildren will pay back $100.

Government never created a **** thing nor earned anything either, except the spite of the common man.

waterwolf
04-16-2011, 09:29 PM
Just a side thought, but with proper management the clinch could more then likely sustain itself. However, it would take a massive shift in regulations, and a complete clean out of the anderson county human gene pool to be
successful.

I say the state should manage our hatcheries, and sell a trout harvest license. This license should cost enough to support the hatcheries, and the funds solely used for those purposes.

Here's another thought, stop stocking catchable sized fish, they are more expensive to raise. Stop stocking sub par rivers/streams as put and take. Raise only fingerlings, and only stock them in waters which can support trout year round with no exceptions.

Seems simple enough to solve if you ask me.

Rodonthefly
04-16-2011, 09:58 PM
Just a side thought, but with proper management the clinch could more then likely sustain itself. However, it would take a massive shift in regulations, and a complete clean out of the anderson county human gene pool to be
successful.

I say the state should manage our hatcheries, and sell a trout harvest license. This license should cost enough to support the hatcheries, and the funds solely used for those purposes.

Here's another thought, stop stocking catchable sized fish, they are more expensive to raise. Stop stocking sub par rivers/streams as put and take. Raise only fingerlings, and only stock them in waters which can support trout year round with no exceptions.

Seems simple enough to solve if you ask me.

Interesting points Jim, I'll over look the "complete clean out of the anderson county geen pool" part. In regards to the harvest license that would take more inforcement to up hold that. However stocking fingerlings would be a good move, but you know as well as I do dumb *** people would try to keep them a mess of those little guys aswell. I have seen it!

Why not lower the number from 7 to 4? You can't tell me that the normal size family can sit down and eat 7 trout at one supper. Also, move the slot limit size down or make the river from say Millers island down a catch and release only section? Or **** give the freezer filler folks the weir pool to catch their dinner and leave the rest of the river alone.

Delayed harvest has proven to work well on many of rivers as well. But with all that said its going to take a lot of work from our local wardens to up hold some of these ideas and with only two wardens covering Anderson county that would be hard to do. In the many many years of fishing the river I have only been checked one time.

whitefeather
04-16-2011, 10:13 PM
Just a side thought, but with proper management the clinch could more then likely sustain itself. However, it would take a massive shift in regulations, and a complete clean out of the anderson county human gene pool to be
successful.

I say the state should manage our hatcheries, and sell a trout harvest license. This license should cost enough to support the hatcheries, and the funds solely used for those purposes.

Here's another thought, stop stocking catchable sized fish, they are more expensive to raise. Stop stocking sub par rivers/streams as put and take. Raise only fingerlings, and only stock them in waters which can support trout year round with no exceptions.

Seems simple enough to solve if you ask me.

Waterwolf,

I don't know how many of you folks are familiar with hatchery operations. My wife and I were going to buy a hatchery in southern NC , near Hayesville back in 2007. Then the drought hit and we backed out.

But, I had to do a lot of research on the operations of it before hand to make a sound decision. We we're going to upgrade the tanks and fresh water flow system, and things like that to make it more viable.

What I found out was the enormous amount of labor and around the clock care that absolutely had to be given to the fertilized eggs and hatchlings.

Antibiotics at precise times to help them survive, and proper nutrion, come **** or high water. Certainly, from there, raising them to 10 or 11 inches was also expensive.

But a viable hatchery operation must rely on fertilized eggs from brood fish, because having them shipped in leads to a lot of dead eggs on arrival, not to mention the ones that die later on, and its expensive.

So you need to raise a percentage of the eggs to mature stocking size anyway. Then, there is only so much life span left in a mature brood fish, so you have to turn them back to nature, which puts trophy size fish in the rivers, and start new with maturing brood fish. Its a never ending cycle of birth and rebirth.

Now I can't tell you what the costs are down the road in a stocking program, but I can tell you that there will always be stocking size fish that need to go into the wild, rather than keep on feeding them at an ever increasing expense.

But I agree with you in that put and take seasons on non-viable rivers only serve to shore up the idea of entitlements, if you get my drift.

If the fish can't survive in their natural habitat, then why stock them. It's a waste of resources.

waterwolf
04-17-2011, 04:02 AM
Interesting points Jim, I'll over look the "complete clean out of the anderson county geen pool" part.
:biggrin:
Remember I am part of that gene pool as well.

silvercreek
04-17-2011, 08:56 AM
I tend to agree that trout should only be stocked in waters where they have a chance of holding over. Most trout whether wild or stocked do not survive. Mortality is very high for both. Nothing beats a wild trout, but having said that and having paid for my trout license and my taxes going for the hatcheries, it is nice to have a shot at them without driving four or five hours. So I guess I'm sort of a hypocrite. I envy folks who live close to true trout water.

cockeye valdez
04-18-2011, 09:57 AM
I'm late to this conversation but want to know how serious this is. Is the local T.U. and national T.U. involved? Do we need to contact our local officials? If the amount of stocked fish (64%) is accurate then trout fishermen/fisherwomen should be discussing alternative funding streams to keep the hatcheries operating.

Streamhound
04-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Hey Jon
I don't doubt you but what is the source(s) of the info? I think others would like to know too.

Jon
04-19-2011, 10:07 PM
I wanted to answer a couple of questions that have come up through out this thread. I wanted to give you some info about me so you dont think I am just some random message board guy posting. I currently serve as the president of The Hendersonville Fly Fishing Club as well as the President of the Cumberland Chapter of TU which is the Nashville TU chapter. I along with many folks here in middle Tennessee work very close with the TWRA. One of the things that we in middle TN were able to partner with TWRA on is the new regs on the Caney Fork. The information that I posted is from information I collected from TWRA. TU on the state level is involved and working on this from many different angles. I do not want to see the hatcheries close and do not want to even think about the impact that it will have on our tailwaters. We need folks to write letters, send emails and make phone calls to our state and federal representatives and ask them to keep the hatcheries open.

I hope this information helps.

Thanks,

Jon

Knothead
04-20-2011, 08:47 AM
Keep in mind that the Federal hatcheries supply fish to places outside of Tennessee, including Indian reservations. If the TWRA were able to take over the hatcheries (which they can't afford), where would the places without hatcheries get fish? There are no easy answers. It will be interesting to see what happens.
BTW, by raising your hand, how many of you have contacted your US senators and representatives about this?

waterwolf
04-21-2011, 04:10 AM
Keep in mind that the Federal hatcheries supply fish to places outside of Tennessee, including Indian reservations. If the TWRA were able to take over the hatcheries (which they can't afford), where would the places without hatcheries get fish? There are no easy answers. It will be interesting to see what happens.
BTW, by raising your hand, how many of you have contacted your US senators and representatives about this?
My senator and representative has much more important issues to focus on rather then hatcheries IMO. He should not be involved with fish stocking, and neither should the federal govt.

I think I may contact him, to let him know there is another area they can cut spending out of the federal budget nationwide.

When did fish stocking become an entitlement program that everyone expected the feds to do?

silvercreek
04-21-2011, 07:59 AM
Established in 1871.

Streamhound
04-21-2011, 09:20 AM
Thanks for the source Jon. I got same info yesterday through FFF. This is going to hurt here in KY.

Corbo
04-21-2011, 09:55 AM
I agree that fish stocking should not be another Federal entitlement program BUT we all do pay Federal excise tax on everything we purchase that is fishing related.

People who visit our National Parks pay nothing.... totally subsidized, same with National forests.

Sportsmen are the only outdoor recreationalists (word?) that are taxed in this fashion.... there ain't no tax on golf equipment or anything else yet many towns/cities get Federal money to upgrade municipal golf courses.

We Pay to Play

Scott H.
04-22-2011, 08:45 AM
Why do I pay $85 for a nonresident fishing liscence with trout if TWRA doesn't fund and support the stocking of the rivers?


Scott

BlueRaiderFan
04-22-2011, 12:25 PM
I agree that fish stocking should not be another Federal entitlement program BUT we all do pay Federal excise tax on everything we purchase that is fishing related.

People who visit our National Parks pay nothing.... totally subsidized, same with National forests.

Sportsmen are the only outdoor recreationalists (word?) that are taxed in this fashion.... there ain't no tax on golf equipment or anything else yet many towns/cities get Federal money to upgrade municipal golf courses.

We Pay to Play


There are green fees and cart fees for golf...they do pay.

Jon
04-22-2011, 09:05 PM
The TWRA does stock our rivers, lakes and streams and that is why we pay for a trout stamp and license.

Flat Fly n
04-23-2011, 10:15 AM
This is too important an issue to ignore. This note below if from a state TWRA official and a friend of mine from another website.

Maybe a few phone calls to TWRA can help with this.

Phil-Nothing is set in stone at this point, but it isn't looking good. When I asked the question to Frank Fiss the other day he told me that he was not as optimistic as he had been earlier on the situation. He or Fisheries Chief Bobby Wilson would be the best source of info on the situation (615) 781-6575 M-F.

Stana Claus
04-23-2011, 10:41 AM
You know, I could make arguments for both sides on this issue. While I'm not personally in favor of my federal tax dollars going to fund recreational opportunities for special interest groups (of which we are one), there is the responsibility of TVA and USACE to offset the damage caused by their dams to the local ecosystem. (We'll just ignore the overall positive economic benefit those dams have brought to the region for the purpose of this discussion). On the other hand, if the economic impact of the hatcheries is on the order of $75 made for every $1 spent, who's making that money? The local businesses in the communities surrounding the hatchery supported waters, and the local governments who collect sales and property taxes from those businesses, that's who. Right now, those folks are riding the gravy train being paid for by our federal tax dollars. Those are the folks who will lose if the feds pull their funding and the hatcheries have to shut down, therefore those are the folks who should be picking up the cost of operating the hatcheries. That's how a capitalist system is supposed to work.

waterwolf
04-23-2011, 09:39 PM
You know, I could make arguments for both sides on this issue. While I'm not personally in favor of my federal tax dollars going to fund recreational opportunities for special interest groups (of which we are one), there is the responsibility of TVA and USACE to offset the damage caused by their dams to the local ecosystem. (We'll just ignore the overall positive economic benefit those dams have brought to the region for the purpose of this discussion). On the other hand, if the economic impact of the hatcheries is on the order of $75 made for every $1 spent, who's making that money? The local businesses in the communities surrounding the hatchery supported waters, and the local governments who collect sales and property taxes from those businesses, that's who. Right now, those folks are riding the gravy train being paid for by our federal tax dollars. Those are the folks who will lose if the feds pull their funding and the hatcheries have to shut down, therefore those are the folks who should be picking up the cost of operating the hatcheries. That's how a capitalist system is supposed to work.

TVA receives zero dollars from the feds. All of their revenue comes from power generation and other revenue generating activities they perform. Or so I have been told.

Stana Claus
04-24-2011, 08:39 AM
Even if that's so, how is the money TVA is supposedly paying for ecosystem remediation making its way to the federally supported hatcheries? My point is, whoever benefits from the output of the hatcheries should be who is paying for that facility. And that's not just the trout fisherfolk, that includes the local hotels, restaurants, gas stations, convenience stores, etc. in those places where the trout are stocked (where those fisherfolk spend their money), as well as the local governments who collect tax revenue on all that money being spent. If the fisheries go away and the fisherfolk with them, I dare say those are the folks who will suffer for it. And, to keep the local schools funded, roads paved (maybe) and other things that rely on the local taxes up and running, property taxes and other local taxes will have to be raised to compensate for the lost revenues. Therefore, it would be in the locals best interests to support the hatcheries themselves to keep those tourist dollars (outside money) flowing into the local area.

spotlight
04-24-2011, 02:59 PM
I sure hope that some of the 60.00 that I paid for a trout plate goes to some good this is sad news.

silvercreek
04-24-2011, 04:23 PM
You could be right Santa. It may be a good opportunity for private waters where the people bearing the costs of stocking the water profit from doing so. Lots of small streams in TN are stocked with the landowner permisson to allow fishermen on the land. These could be privately stocked and be pay to fish. A few spots like that in TN now. Not having to compete with public waters might make it more feasible.

Flat Fly n
04-24-2011, 10:50 PM
So Waterwolf the ONLY tailwater that you want to be able to fish and be guaranteed to catch fish is the S. Holston (the only self sustaining tailwater of trout, albeit a few rumors here and there of the Clinch) IF this passes and we loose most of our hatchery fish?

TWRA should on this news alone cancel "free fishing Saturday" on any trout stream, and cancel putting trout in the World's Fair pond, as well as the little lake/pond in Campbell county, and whereever else they give away the fish to the masses for promotions that are bought and paid for from license holders in this state.

waterwolf
04-25-2011, 10:35 PM
So Waterwolf the ONLY tailwater that you want to be able to fish and be guaranteed to catch fish is the S. Holston (the only self sustaining tailwater of trout, albeit a few rumors here and there of the Clinch) IF this passes and we loose most of our hatchery fish?

TWRA should on this news alone cancel "free fishing Saturday" on any trout stream, and cancel putting trout in the World's Fair pond, as well as the little lake/pond in Campbell county, and whereever else they give away the fish to the masses for promotions that are bought and paid for from license holders in this state.
I disagree, it would take a massive regulation change, and a massive amount of enforcement, but the Clinch I believe could sustain itself. Not with the level of harvest it receives now, but with a very low limit or even C&R it could survive.

Holston would be gone for sure, and most of the other sub par creeks or ditches that TWRA wastes money on as well. Holston is fine now, but if this comes to fruition I think it has to be let go.

Why did TWRA stock the Big Pigeon again this year knowing that every trout has died by Memorial Day the past 2 years? They love wasting our money on idiotic things, period.

br549
04-26-2011, 10:50 AM
Looks like the 6 of the 8 fish hatcheries will be southern. Greers Ferry (AR), Norfork (AR), Chattahoochee Forest (GA), Wolf Creek (KY), Erwin (TN) and Dale Hollow (TN). This could be devastating to fishing in the south particularly those of us who have enjoyed tailwater fishing in TN, KY and Arkansas. The amount of money saved by closing these will pale in comparison to the amount lost in revenue in areas like the White River in Arkansas and around our many TVA lakes. I guess it's time to buy a jet ski.

Owl
05-03-2011, 05:51 PM
I'd like 80% of the fly fishermen out there to buy jet ski's. That would be really helpful to the fishing!


I think we should stop right now and write our Congresscritters and let them know that we'd rather they cut defense or research or infrastructure funding instead of the really important things like raising pellet fed trout.


You guys realize that what you're talking about is sustaining an artificial fishery in a time of severe economic crisis? right?

waterwolf
05-03-2011, 09:40 PM
You guys realize that what you're talking about is sustaining an artificial fishery in a time of severe economic crisis? right?
I'm not, the feds have no business spending money on hatcheries. Just the same as they have no business spending money on healthcare, stupid pet projects, foreign aide, or the majority of other BS they deem "worthy" of our tax dollars. How much money is blow every year on the horrid department of education?

silvercreek
05-04-2011, 08:34 AM
I'm wondering what the impact of this will be on the sale of trout stamps. Why would a person buy a trout stamp if they have drive four or five hours to benefit from it? Heck, if I have to drive that far, I'd just as soon go on to the Smoky's where I only need a fishing license and do not have to plan my fishing around the generation schedules.

MBB
05-04-2011, 09:05 AM
The loss of the hatcheries will have a considerable detrimental economic impact on the local communities. It doesn't make sense, particularly when the overall budget of the department is not being cut and for each dollar spent there is a huge economic return. From an economic standpoint, it is one of the most productive uses of government funds.

Yes, it is a government subsidy. But, the government subsidizes so many things, including oil companies, education, farmers, alternative fuels, NPR, etc. Why cut the one that gives one of the hightest benefits from an economic standpoint?

Personally, I would rather save lives and money by bringing the troops home from Afghanistan. Osama is now dead and we should not be spending taxpayer dollars in defending people throughout the world, (including 4 billion in foreign aid to Pakistan) that hate us.

br549
05-04-2011, 09:38 AM
Well said MBB. I believe its one of those programs that for every dollar put in they make several in tax revenue. Look at the economies around the Arkansas tailwaters for proof of that. Although I suspect after this springs floods, they will be hurting.

I agree that the Federal Government as gotten out of hand. And that fish hatcheries should be maintained by the states that benefit from them. Heck let's get rid of Forest Service and NPS and the US Fish and Wildlife departments while we are at it. Let's let private industries manage the lands more than they already do. Let's put all those nice refuges, national parks and forests up for sale. (The last part of this statement is tongue in cheek)

Anyways, the pink elephant in the room is entitlements. We will never balance our budget nor get out of our debt until entitlements are reformed. Good luck finding politicians that will tackle that. Cause it ain't gonna be easy.

tennswede
05-04-2011, 11:13 AM
The loss of the hatcheries will have a considerable detrimental economic impact on the local communities. It doesn't make sense, particularly when the overall budget of the department is not being cut and for each dollar spent there is a huge economic return. From an economic standpoint, it is one of the most productive uses of government funds.

Yes, it is a government subsidy. But, the government subsidizes so many things, including oil companies, education, farmers, alternative fuels, NPR, etc. Why cut the one that gives one of the hightest benefits from an economic standpoint?

Personally, I would rather save lives and money by bringing the troops home from Afghanistan. Osama is now dead and we should not be spending taxpayer dollars in defending people throughout the world, (including 4 billion in foreign aid to Pakistan) that hate us.

Couldn't have said it better myself my friend. A voice of reason in this sea of insanity. All this bs about needing to be in every god forsaken country in the world is nothing but a smokescreen for the political/military apparatus. At the same time as many people in this country can't afford simple health care. Recent survey in Egypt, about 16% favors us, and we spend roughly 2 billion dollars on Egypt a year, mostly military equipment, Anyone see the connection here? Don't even get me started on Israel. When is this country going to realize that the rest of the world need our market and we don't need to be over there. Take home our troops, defend our own borders and take care of our own people and enforce existing laws. BTW, I'm an American citizen and I came here legally.

Corbo
05-04-2011, 12:46 PM
I would rather see the State of TN take over Erwin in the event of Federal Funding Failure and in the grand scheme of things would prefer TN in control than the Feds.

Funny thing.... up in Maine there are many private hatcheries that supply trout and salmon for the aquaculture industry that raises fish in pens on the coast. These privately owned hatcheries produce fish at a fraction of the cost of fish grown by the State of Maine.

whitefeather
05-04-2011, 12:47 PM
Politicians are puppets, dangling from the strings of their emperor masters, who make them move and animate them. They speak but the voice is not theirs. They are made of wood, their ears do not hear. Their eyes do not see. They only say what the man behind the curtain tells them to say. Their lips move, but no truth comes from them.

They are choreographed to say what you want to hear and do slight of hand moves to trick you, all the while their hands are in your pockets, robbing what is not rightfully theirs.

They benefit from their thievery in percentage. The masters take most. When they get all they can get, the show will end, the puppets discarded, lifeless, and you will be their new subjects, penniless and poor, having lost all, but only if you're lucky.

It has happened again and again and again, over the centuries, but still we do not learn! Still, we do not remember! God help us!:frown:

tennswede
05-04-2011, 03:55 PM
1.3 billion in aid to Pakistan every year. Tell me anyone how it's helping an east Tennessean out of work. It's time everyone in this country wakes up.

tennswede
05-04-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm not, the feds have no business spending money on hatcheries. Just the same as they have no business spending money on healthcare, stupid pet projects, foreign aide, or the majority of other BS they deem "worthy" of our tax dollars. How much money is blow every year on the horrid department of education?

I think we should let McDonald's run the department of Education. All in the name of Corporate Citizenship.

whitefeather
05-04-2011, 07:37 PM
The Department of Public Education is the biggest oxymoron that has ever existed.

It is nothing but a tool to create generations of ignorant subjects who can't figure out what is going on, and won't resist the inevitable conclusion.

tennswede
05-04-2011, 08:25 PM
That's why I think McDonald's should take over. Then we can let Massey Energy run the EPA. Dept of Transportation, let Boeing and GM run that one. Social Security Administration, I think we farm that out to the Republican National Committee. The Tea Party would be in charge of the congressional budget office. Oh i forgot, no more fishing allowed, it's now all owned by private companies or individuals. An annual pass to Cherokee National Forest Amusement Park is now only $99 dollars.

Please people, think about all this next time you drive on a public road, get water from a public source, cash in a social security check or even something as simple as expecting the garbage to be picked up outside your home. Is it free? Of course not. End of story, most intelligent people would understand this, yet they keep hollering about evil government this and evil government that. Most people don't miss it until it's gone. I can guarantee you that most fisher persons would be sorry if it wasn't for various government taking care of things in conjunction with private donors and volunteers. Oh shoot, the mail didn't arrive today! I was expecting an important letter, Oh I just forgot we sold of the mail service to Wal-Mart and they outsourced the delivery to be rerouted via China. Labor costs you know, I'll get the mail eventually.

whitefeather
05-04-2011, 10:45 PM
States should handle their business. The Federal government should mind its own constituional business and nothing more. There is no where in the constitution that gives the feds or congress the authority to tax sporting equipment and use the money to stock fish in any state or buy any land for forests. Those should be options the state via the people (electorate) considers and either approves or rejects. Taxing sporting equipment sales at the state level is up to the people giving that power to the state. Likewise, infrastructure should handled by the state or private enterprise contracted by the state.

The single most important thing left out of education today is the way the US Consitution is supposed to work and how and what the government via the three branches is supposed to accomplish and nothing more.

They are counting on the ignorance of the masses to prevail so they can boot stomp all over us on their way to total power dominaton. And they are well on their way. If, in the end, it happens, it happens because we as a people let it happen and for no other reason than just plain ignorance and laziness.

The sportsmen and sportswomen of Tennessee should unite on a common front and demand an accounting by the state governement and then work to absorb the hatchery operations from the feds, show them the door and assert their states rights, and never let them back in.

I know, I know, it can't be done! Right? Wrong! It can be done! Just like hiking the AT, it will take a while, it won't happen over night. The mess we are in didn't happen over night. It's been a long process of many, many years of neglect by the people of their duty to be watch dogs and keep the corruption and swindlers out of the picture.

If you leave for extended vacation and leave your windows open and your doors unlocked, you can almost rest assured you will come home to bare walls and floors.

waterwolf
05-05-2011, 03:57 AM
That's why I think McDonald's should take over. Then we can let Massey Energy run the EPA. Dept of Transportation, let Boeing and GM run that one. Social Security Administration, I think we farm that out to the Republican National Committee. The Tea Party would be in charge of the congressional budget office. Oh i forgot, no more fishing allowed, it's now all owned by private companies or individuals. An annual pass to Cherokee National Forest Amusement Park is now only $99 dollars.

Please people, think about all this next time you drive on a public road, get water from a public source, cash in a social security check or even something as simple as expecting the garbage to be picked up outside your home. Is it free? Of course not. End of story, most intelligent people would understand this, yet they keep hollering about evil government this and evil government that. Most people don't miss it until it's gone. I can guarantee you that most fisher persons would be sorry if it wasn't for various government taking care of things in conjunction with private donors and volunteers. Oh shoot, the mail didn't arrive today! I was expecting an important letter, Oh I just forgot we sold of the mail service to Wal-Mart and they outsourced the delivery to be rerouted via China. Labor costs you know, I'll get the mail eventually.
Sorry Hans, but you and I don't see eye to eye on the whole govt involvement stuff. However, unlike you I will not consider your views uneducated because you see things differently.

The dept of education is worthless, since its inception the education levels of our kids has been on a steady decline. The business of educating our youth should be handled by the states.

Back to fisheries, local fisheries should be governed by the state in which the waterways are located. That includes stocking. What benefit does it serve the feds to stock our rivers? None, the benefits help the local economies and the states, not the feds.

It has nothing to do with tea parties, conservatism, or liberalism. It has everything to do with common sense, and not needing the govt to hold our hands for everything each individual state can handle.

Can't believe you brought up the post office, not a great example as they are running billion dollars debts every year, while the private options are hugely profitable. In other words, another fine example of a poorly managed federal govt institution.

The state of TN should manage our fisheries, if it will cost us more money to enjoy stocked rivers, then we as residents need to pony up and pay a little more for our fishing licenses. Afterall, they are fairly inexpensive. Also, charge more for the folks who use the resource as a grocery store.

JoeFred
06-17-2011, 09:48 AM
...I would hope that National TU has the guts to stand up to ...

Trout Unlimited has provided a convenient template for its members to use in contacting their representatives in congress. Here's what was sent yesterday to mine: Senator Lamar Alexander, Senator Bob Corker & Representative Phil Roe:
I am writing as a member of Trout Unlimited (TU), a conservation organization of over 140,000 members, to urge you to ensure that funding is provided for the mitigation hatcheries of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) in the FY 12 budget. These facilities provide a wealth of recreational fishing and youth education opportunities, and support thousands of jobs.

In its FY12 budget proposal, the FWS proposed a $11 million cut to the National Fish Hatchery System, and a $6 million cut to the National Fish Hatchery operations account for the mitigation hatchery system. There are 9 mitigation hatcheries nationwide at risk, 7 of which are in the Southeast.

The problem is that the Army Corps of Engineers (Corps), the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA), and other dam operating federal agencies are not contributing enough of their shares of the hatchery operating expenses for the FWS hatcheries that provide fish to mitigate the effects of their water development structures. The best way to solve this problem is for Congress to ensure that the Corps, TVA and other dam operating agencies to pay their fair share of the hatchery operations costs. If those agencies fail to pay all, or a portion of the costs, then TU urges Congress to supply the Fish and Wildlife Service with the remainder to keep the facilities running.

These hatcheries provide valuable recreational fisheries. The mitigation facilities help to provide over 3,000 jobs and account for $325 million in economic benefits to local communities and states. I urge you to work with the Appropriations committee to ensure that funding is made available for FY12 to keep the facilities running.

Sincerely,
Fred Turner
...

benintenn
06-17-2011, 10:11 AM
The business of educating our youth should be handled by the states.

Right now the states are in charge of educating our youth. They've done a stand up job too, right? That's why we rank below socialist powerhouses like Canada, Korea, Finland, Switzerland, China, etc in science, math and reading.

All the feds do is tie money to achievement. If a states does well, the US Dept of Ed gives them more money. If they don't do well, the feds don't give money. The US Dept of Ed does not and can not come into a state and force a state to change educational standards or testing procedures. Now, they can offer incentives i.e money for the state to adopt new practices, tougher educational standards, and more rigorous tests but the state has the right to refuse.

In regards to the fisheries, the cuts have to come from somewhere. Everyone, including myself, believes the cuts have to occur. The problem is that no one wants to sacrifice or have "their" programs suffer. US government is broke and so is the state.

JoeFred
06-17-2011, 11:32 AM
...In regards to the fisheries, the cuts have to come from somewhere. Everyone, including myself, believes the cuts have to occur. The problem is that no one wants to sacrifice or have "their" programs suffer. US government is broke and so is the state.

I agree. Cuts are essential, and urgently needed, but are we to believe that past cuts by the Corps, TVA, and other dam operating federal agencies is the sole reason they have not been contributing enough of their shares of the hatchery operating expenses? I'm inclined to believe other than their accounts payable bean counters have had a say in checks not being sent to FWS.

Crockett
06-17-2011, 11:41 AM
In regards to the fisheries, the cuts have to come from somewhere. Everyone, including myself, believes the cuts have to occur. The problem is that no one wants to sacrifice or have "their" programs suffer. US government is broke and so is the state.

I agree with the US government and state gove being broke which is exactly why Fred's letter above made so much sense. The Dam operators could help support the hatcheries and thus take up the gap that cuts would leave. I like it. Will send it off today Fred thanks!

Flat Fly n
06-17-2011, 02:11 PM
We better be thinking of some plans and quick.

I just got off the phone from a friend in NH up around the Errol area. Long known for brook trout in the ponds and lakes there. He said "it's dead, it's all dead" when I asked him how the fishing was in the ponds that we would use float tubes in and have great evenings with dry flies for brookies and rainbows. "New Hampshire has no money as a state and the feds only marginally stock the rivers, but the ponds (small lakes to us) only get about 50 fish a year".
Long Pond outside Errol NH(typical small pond and full of brook trout)
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee78/tnflyfish/LongPond.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee78/tnflyfish/LAXteam046.jpg

pineman19
06-19-2011, 09:03 AM
We better be thinking of some plans and quick.

I just got off the phone from a friend in NH up around the Errol area. Long known for brook trout in the ponds and lakes there. He said "it's dead, it's all dead" when I asked him how the fishing was in the ponds that we would use float tubes in and have great evenings with dry flies for brookies and rainbows. "New Hampshire has no money as a state and the feds only marginally stock the rivers, but the ponds (small lakes to us) only get about 50 fish a year".
Long Pond outside Errol NH(typical small pond and full of brook trout)
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee78/tnflyfish/LongPond.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee78/tnflyfish/LAXteam046.jpg

Interesting, why don't the brook trout reproduce in these ponds? I have seen small mountains ponds/lakes in SW CO where the brookies are thick as thieves, too many fish so that they are stunted. Does acid rain play a role as well. I guess I haven't pushed the panic button on this issue. I tend to think people emotions are being played on this issue, something that politicians make a living on. I talked with someone with the USFWS a month ago and ask about this subject and he seemed to think they were not going to close the hatcheries, but simply garnering more support or money to keep things rolling. I think it will work out in the end.

One question I have is would some streams be better off without stocking? The SOHO for example, it has brown trout reproduction and supposedly bows as well. I can't help but wonder if the fishing could be a s good or better without stocking? I would be willing to bet (a dollar, lol) that the number of baitfishers and spinners would decrease if stocking was decrease or eliminated.

Just some alternative thoughts on the subject.

Let the flaming begin :rolleyes:

Neal

silvercreek
06-19-2011, 09:17 AM
Research I have read supports that stocking a stream with natural reproduction harms the fishery. That said many TN streams do not have natural rproduction and would not have trout fishing without it. I would focus on stocking streams that at least allow carryover. But even at that, I think that reducing stocking will result in a loss of revenue from a reduction in trout stamp sales. I am suspect of any groups numbers, but it seems that stocking programs have an economic benefit which exceeds the cost of the stocking.

pineman19
06-19-2011, 09:45 AM
Research I have read supports that stocking a stream with natural reproduction harms the fishery. That said many TN streams do not have natural rproduction and would not have trout fishing without it. I would focus on stocking streams that at least allow carryover. But even at that, I think that reducing stocking will result in a loss of revenue from a reduction in trout stamp sales. I am suspect of any groups numbers, but it seems that stocking programs have an economic benefit which exceeds the cost of the stocking.

Question, does stocking streams that have good natural reproduction reduce the average size of the fish, especially the wild fish? There is only so much food in a stream/river, artificially raising the population without an increase in food seems like it would impact the average size and health of the existing fish. Just conjecture on my part, I am sure there are a number of factors that need to be considered when making this type of assessment.

Neal

silvercreek
06-19-2011, 10:53 AM
Man or beast, an area can only support so much life. In addition, studies suggest that hatchery fish lack the "social manners" of wild fish. Used to being in schools, they do not follow a pecking order like wild fish and much energy of both wild and stocked fish is spent in needless fighting for the best feeding spots and available food. Imagine an orderly line up for food versus a free for all for the same food.

pineman19
06-19-2011, 11:20 AM
Man or beast, an area can only support so much life. In addition, studies suggest that hatchery fish lack the "social manners" of wild fish. Used to being in schools, they do not follow a pecking order like wild fish and much energy of both wild and stocked fish is spent in needless fighting for the best feeding spots and available food. Imagine an orderly line up for food versus a free for all for the same food.

Silvercreek,

I prefer the fingerling stocking that is done a lot on the Clinch. By the time those fish are 12" or so they are like a wild fish, in looks and how they act. A lot more enjoyable to catch than a fresh stocker of the same size. They fight better and have the colors of a wild fish. I would rather catch one of those fish than 5 "stockers". I enjoyed fishing the Holston (Nances Ferry) this spring for the same reason. It seemed the stockers were more wild in appearance in healthe and vigor since they had been in the river a while, in great part to all the early generation on the river which kept the crowds away and gave the fish time to get acclimated to the river. The Clinch is doing great as well, the fish are fighting like beasts and look very healthy and "wild".

Neal

silvercreek
06-19-2011, 11:43 AM
I agree with your observations. During the cicada emergence here in mid TN, I was surprised by the number of big brown trout in the Caney Fork in just the small stretch I fished. They were much like wild fish in all regards. I suspect they got that size from consuming unsuspecting hatchery fish. Rainbows that hold over also display the color and fighting characteristics of wild fish.

Owl
06-20-2011, 02:48 AM
Don't worry. Soon, the number of fish out there will be the least of your worries. As the economy continues to tank, no one will be able to afford fuel, food or supplies for fishing trips anyway. And those that do still find the means to go fishing will be fishing for food, not for sport.

Fly fishing is awesome. I love it. But there are bigger problems coming, unfortunately.

If only people worried as much about Liberty as they did stocker trout.

MBB
06-20-2011, 08:16 AM
[QUOTE=Owl;93989]Don't worry. Soon, the number of fish out there will be the least of your worries. As the economy continues to tank, no one will be able to afford fuel, food or supplies for fishing trips anyway. And those that do still find the means to go fishing will be fishing for food, not for sport.

The stocker trout indirectly, but clearly provide cash to guides, motels, restaurants, fly shops, gas stations, convenience stores, and other businesses. This infusion of cash helps the local economy and allows people to afford fuel and food.

Stana Claus
06-20-2011, 10:41 AM
The stocker trout indirectly, but clearly provide cash to guides, motels, restaurants, fly shops, gas stations, convenience stores, and other businesses. This infusion of cash helps the local economy and allows people to afford fuel and food.

Which is exactly why (as I stated in posts #37 & 39) it's the local area businesses & governments that should be supporting the hatcheries, not the Feds. Make the folks who directly benefit from the stocked trout (and I mean ALL the folks, not just the fisherfolk), pay for the program. That's "Pay for Play" in it's purest form and exactly how a Capitalist system is supposed to work. What we're looking at now smacks clearly of Socialism.

silvercreek
06-20-2011, 11:40 AM
In a capitalist system you have to have a willing seller and a willing investor. How do you "make" a person invest in a free market?

Stana Claus
06-20-2011, 10:14 PM
The hatcheries are the sellers, and the people who stand to profit from the output of the hatcheries (the hotels, restaurants, fly shops, guides, gas stations, grocery stores, etc, serving the people fishing for those stocked trout, as well as the local and state governments who collect sales tax revenue on all of the above) are the ones who should be investing to guarantee that output. The reason they don't is because, so far, they haven't had to. The Federal Government has been giving them a free ride by supplying the fish that brings in the tourist crowd without them having to invest a dime. I promise that if I were operating a business that relied on fish being stocked by some hatchery, and I could generate $75 for every $1 invested (per the quoted studies) I'd d****ed sure be investing in that hatchery instead of sitting around relying on Uncle Sam to do it for me.

Stana Claus
06-20-2011, 10:33 PM
Wait, I'm sorry, the above rant didn't address the actual issue you raised with my earlier post. You're right, you can't actually "make" the locals who benefit from the hatcheries invest in them. But if the federal gravy train dries up and goes away, and if they make as much money off the tourist dollar as the studies say they do, then, if they were astute capitalists (and I realize that's a really big IF), they would invest their own money in the hatcheries to ensure the ongoing profitability of their local businesses. I probably should have use the word "let" or "encourage" instead of "make" in my earlier post. Perhaps that would have made more sense.

MBB
06-21-2011, 11:47 AM
The hatcheries are the sellers, and the people who stand to profit from the output of the hatcheries (the hotels, restaurants, fly shops, guides, gas stations, grocery stores, etc, serving the people fishing for those stocked trout, as well as the local and state governments who collect sales tax revenue on all of the above) are the ones who should be investing to guarantee that output. The reason they don't is because, so far, they haven't had to. The Federal Government has been giving them a free ride by supplying the fish that brings in the tourist crowd without them having to invest a dime. I promise that if I were operating a business that relied on fish being stocked by some hatchery, and I could generate $75 for every $1 invested (per the quoted studies) I'd d****ed sure be investing in that hatchery instead of sitting around relying on Uncle Sam to do it for me.

It might sound good in theory, but it completely breaks down in reality. The guides, fly shop owners, and proprietors of small businesses are barely making ends meet now. They do not have the money nor the organization to put together the money to purchase a hatchery and operate it successfully. That leaves the state and local governments who are also broke and who do not have the ability or have limited ability to borrow to make the needed investment. Either the feds pay (ideally the Core of Engineers or TVA to mitigate their damages) or we increase license fees again massively or we quit stocking and allow the guides, flyshop owners, and small businessmen to collect unemployment benefits for years. Wonder how much money the government(s) will pay then?

silvercreek
06-21-2011, 05:13 PM
If the feds or government at any level is actually doing something that keeps people employed and raises revenue above what it cost to operate it, then I'm all for it. If we could get more people to catch and release, then each of those dollars spent to stock a trout would multiply its value. Not against eating a trout now and then, but I agree with waterwolf. It's not a grocery store.

Steve Wright
10-22-2011, 09:08 AM
There is a positive, and that is the majority of our fish do not come from federal hatcheries.

In all honesty the feds should not be in the business of raising fish. I do not recall reading in the constitution that the govt should provide ample fish for the country. Maybe I missed that section.

Personally I think far too many americans rely on the govt for services, money, or something else to make their lives better. What happened to the americans who wanted govt to stay out of their lives and do only the things which they should do (military etc). If we don't get this insane spending under control it will destroy this nation, and is already to some degree.

TWRA which is funded by us, should be the ones raising fish for stocking purposes and the people who utilize the waters where these fish are stocked should use self control and understand that it isn't necessarily a grocery store.

If you want more fish stocked, create a foundation to raise money to fund hatcheries in this state on the state level. Let the feds fold up. ASk yourself why do we need a US fish and wildlife service? Why does the federal govt need to stock fish?


Agree with this 100 %

Knothead
10-27-2011, 04:03 PM
Interesting thread and posts. Hopefully, things will be resolved in the future. It would be virually impossible for states to take over the hatcheries. First, where would they get the money as wildlife agencies are strapped as it is. Second,the Erwin, TN hatchery hatches eggs and then ships them to other hatcheries to raise and release. I don't think it is feasible for each state to shell out millions to build new hatcheries just to hatch eggs and then build hatcheries to raise them for release.
Go to the USF&WS website and see what they do besides raise fish. I think you might be surprised.

Steve Wright
10-27-2011, 10:24 PM
Probably need to create a federal trout stamp.
Everyone pays $.65 for each trout they catch & release. $2.88 for those kept.
We can lurk on the internet & outfitters reports to keep the tally if we think the honor system wouldn't work.