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Rodonthefly
03-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Due to the help of TVA, pushing so much water :mad:, trout fishing is going to be awsome in Melton Hill lake. TVA is working hand and hand with TWRA to flush all the trout they can into Melton Hill to help feed the Muskie. :eek:

Man this is getting out of hand, I remember when I was kid it was rare that TVA spilled water. Maybe every 10 years? It seems this is becoming more and more frequent these days, who is in charge of river management? They are really sucking at doing their job:mad:

MadisonBoats
03-06-2012, 01:03 PM
I know what you mean Rod! I guess it will be like this from know on due to their agreement with the dock owners to maintain a higher winter pool.:frown:

The ironic thing is that the river land owners are getting their docks washed away and much of their bank structures.

tn hound
03-06-2012, 07:43 PM
TVA is working hand and hand with TWRA to flush all the trout they can into Melton Hill to help feed the Muskie.

are you saying that in jest because they're pushing so much water and a bunch of trout will end up in Melton Hill?
or do you literally mean they're working with TWRA to feed the muskie?

TN Jed
03-06-2012, 07:48 PM
Folks:
Hereís a link: http://tva.gov/email/eRiver/2012/february.html (http://tva.gov/email/eRiver/2012/february.html) scroll through and I think youíll get the ideaÖ.TVA doesnít want to open the spill gates or sluice, unless itís necessary. Do I believe everything TVA says? Nope. However I can believe this one, and hereís why. They donít make any money by spilling. I know theyíre a quasi-government entity, but if the water isnít going through the turbines, they donít generate power, which means they donít generate money. Given the wet winter weíve had (especially the Norris watershed), Iíll give TVA the benefit of the doubt this time. Iím in the same boat as yíall (no pun intended), I wish the water conditions would improve. I was planning to take the boat out this weekend and get my fiancť to oar:smile:, but the forecast isnít looking good.

Rodonthefly
03-06-2012, 07:54 PM
are you saying that in jest because they're pushing so much water and a bunch of trout will end up in Melton Hill?
or do you literally mean they're working with TWRA to feed the muskie?

I was joking around.

TNJed,

I know they want to make the money, and they aren't making a dime by spilling, however I just wish they would manage better, they give a 10 day fortcast, why do they run one gen on weekdays then wait till it piss pours the rain and the tube fills up, to do something about it?

tn hound
03-06-2012, 08:11 PM
16,900 cfs is crazy
hopefully the fish that are left will have some big shoulders this spring

TN Jed
03-06-2012, 08:16 PM
Rod:
I get what youíre saying. I see your point and I wish they would manage it better too. After looking at the Operating Guide for Norris, I find it strikingly close to last year. I donít think there are easy answers; Mother Nature has her way sometimes.

TN Jed
03-07-2012, 08:35 PM
Gents:
I stand corrected. Iíll be honest and say I donít know that much about the history of the Clinch, but after reading Mike Boneís blog entry this morning, it was an eye opener. Hereís the link: http://www.theriverjournal.com/ (http://www.theriverjournal.com/). Weíve had a wet winter this year, and last year as well. I figured that was the main culprit behind the spilling. Apparently, the target winter pool that TVA attempts to maintain has a larger role than I realized. In the past TVA maintained a winter pool of 980, now the mark is 1000 feet. Iím an engineer, so I can dig numbers. 20 feet multiplied by the surface area of Norris Lake is a huge volumeÖ..no wonder theyíre spilling more often. Anyway, take a look at Mikeís blog, he gives a much more detailed account and itís well worth a look.

MadisonBoats
03-07-2012, 08:46 PM
Gents:
I stand corrected. Iíll be honest and say I donít know that much about the history of the Clinch, but after reading Mike Boneís blog entry this morning, it was an eye opener. Hereís the link: http://www.theriverjournal.com/ (http://www.theriverjournal.com/). Weíve had a wet winter this year, and last year as well. I figured that was the main culprit behind the spilling. Apparently, the target winter pool that TVA attempts to maintain has a larger role than I realized. In the past TVA maintained a winter pool of 980, now the mark is 1000 feet. Iím an engineer, so I can dig numbers. 20 feet multiplied by the surface area of Norris Lake is a huge volumeÖ..no wonder theyíre spilling more often. Anyway, take a look at Mikeís blog, he gives a much more detailed account and itís well worth a look.

Is that not what I said? :biggrin:

TN Jed
03-07-2012, 09:06 PM
Is that not what I said? :biggrin:

Shawn:
Tip of the hat to you sir, you called it:smile:. Like I said, I'm an engineer, just needed a couple of numbers:smile:.

MadisonBoats
03-07-2012, 09:57 PM
Shawn:
Tip of the hat to you sir, you called it:smile:. Like I said, I'm an engineer, just needed a couple of numbers:smile:.

I know your perspective. One of my under-graduate degrees is mechanical...:biggrin:

Rodonthefly
03-07-2012, 10:15 PM
More water = more money = greedy gov. A$$ holes.

waterwolf
03-07-2012, 11:31 PM
I hate to side with a govt agency, but in this case it should be obvious why they are pouring water through norris right now. I think the lake came up around 5 feet in a couple of days bringing it dangerously close to summer pool 3 months ahead of schedule, and at the start of the wet season.

TVA has zero choice, and never was able to get the lake down to winter pool because of the heavy rainfall over the winter.

This is reality, and having been around the Clinch fishery for decades now, prepares me for these events. They rarely have any negative impact on the fishery, and the times they do are when these events come in May/June.

Fisherman are the only ones affected by this, there is plenty of slack water, and holding water right now, and you could probably even wade fish the edges of many fields right now as the water is probably pushed out in most if not all of them.

silvercreek
03-08-2012, 09:56 AM
Living outside Nashville, TN, trust me you do not want to run out of capacity to store flood waters. The May 2010 flood was a disaster.

MadisonBoats
03-08-2012, 01:12 PM
I hate to side with a govt agency, but in this case it should be obvious why they are pouring water through norris right now. I think the lake came up around 5 feet in a couple of days bringing it dangerously close to summer pool 3 months ahead of schedule, and at the start of the wet season.

TVA has zero choice, and never was able to get the lake down to winter pool because of the heavy rainfall over the winter.

This is reality, and having been around the Clinch fishery for decades now, prepares me for these events. They rarely have any negative impact on the fishery, and the times they do are when these events come in May/June.

Fisherman are the only ones affected by this, there is plenty of slack water, and holding water right now, and you could probably even wade fish the edges of many fields right now as the water is probably pushed out in most if not all of them.

Jim,
I tried drifting and fishing spilling+2 generators several times last year and I did not even see a fish. Any tips or pointers? I worked the inside bends and pulled the banks pretty hard. I even used some huge flies. It was insane how much energy was in the water. I watched my fly sink and rise by itself several times.:eek:

I agree that this will be the new norm for winter and spring since they raised the winter pool level. The operating guide is useless if you use the years previous to this change. One negative I am noticing is heavy erosion on the banks in many areas. I expect to see many new trees parked in the river this summer.

waterwolf
03-08-2012, 11:54 PM
Jim,
I tried drifting and fishing spilling+2 generators several times last year and I did not even see a fish. Any tips or pointers? I worked the inside bends and pulled the banks pretty hard. I even used some huge flies. It was insane how much energy was in the water. I watched my fly sink and rise by itself several times.:eek:

I agree that this will be the new norm for winter and spring since they raised the winter pool level. The operating guide is useless if you use the years previous to this change. One negative I am noticing is heavy erosion on the banks in many areas. I expect to see many new trees parked in the river this summer.
You are right on several levels, the river banks do take a beating for sure. Their is some good news IMO however, and that is the didymo gets whacked by these flows while the long brown clinch moss does extremely well, and subsequently we usually have massive sulphur hatches on years following these events.

I have zero pointers for fishing these high flows. I like you have tried it over the years and had virtually no success. I have occasionally found a few fish up rising on the edges along Donnie's if it happens during sulphur season or later in the summer. But this time of year it is a total waste of time IMO.

Good luck, and wish I had some sort of clue myself as to how to catch fish at this water level.

flyguys
03-09-2012, 06:11 PM
During the last flood out here in west tn and west ky on barkley and kentucky lakes, the water levels were so high as to close off some of the boat ramps. Long story short, fish came shallow to spawn, laid eggs, flood was over, TVA sucked the bottom out of the lake. Killed the spawn. During meetings with fish and wildlife and TVA, TVA basically finally said, "We are flood control and power generators, we don't have time to worry about the fishing. flyguys

Stana Claus
03-09-2012, 07:16 PM
<snip>...TVA basically finally said, "We are flood control and power generators, we don't have time to worry about the fishing. flyguys

Actually, TVA is required by the act that created them to provide navigability of the waterways and flood control first and foremost. Power generation falls below those two and everything else (recreational use) is just a happy bonus once the other duties are met. Sucks for us, but what can you do. They had problems during the bad drought years when they couldn't release enough water for electricity generation because they had to hold enough back to ensure navigation through the lower stretches.

The actual text of the original Tennessee Valley Authority Act of 1933 can be found at http://www.tva.com/abouttva/pdf/TVA_Act.pdf

Pay particular attention to the order in which their responsibilities are listed in the following section:

(j) Shall have power to construct such dams, and reservoirs, in the Tennessee River
and its tributaries, as in conjunction with Wilson Dam, and Norris, Wheeler, and
Pickwick Landing Dams, now under construction, will provide a nine-foot channel in the
said river and maintain a water supply for the same, from Knoxville to its mouth, and will
best serve to promote navigation on the Tennessee River and its tributaries and control
destructive flood waters in the Tennessee and Mississippi River drainage basins; and
shall have power to acquire or construct power houses, power structures, transmission
lines, navigation projects, and incidental works in the Tennessee River and its tributaries,
and to unite the various power installations into one or more systems by transmission
lines. The directors of the Authority are hereby directed to report to Congress their
recommendations not later than April 1, 1936, for the unified development of the
Tennessee River system.


Also note that the 9' navigation channel and water supply requirements only go from Knoxville to the mouth of the system, which helps explain why all the tailwater fishing is upstream from Knoxville. Interesting read if you've got the time and inclination.

Corbo
03-09-2012, 09:40 PM
Thank you Santa!

That was written a long time ago and I think it is time for all the tailwater folks to re-write how the river is managed....

Not to brag.... but I'm a bit of an expert on these matters.

Every two years TVA must complete and submit a recreational plan to FERC, it's called, "Form 80" and it is a "process".

To participate in "The process" you must get "status" and to have status you must petition for it as a "stake holder" in how the river is operated. It is important to have a "constituency" like a pile of TU members who write a Statement that they wish to have status.

The Form 80 process "traditionally" has focused on revreational improvements that licensees make or maintain on the project impoundment... I have sucessfully changed FLOWS and have been granted recreational improvements to the recreational values BELOW dams.

Typically the State (Here that would be TWRA) "participates" by rubber stamping whatever TVA wants/aggrees/ or feels like doing.... same with most of the sub-departments from INTERIOR & COMMERCE. So you need to be heard and provide data supporting your argument.


Now; in the case of the Clinch.... TVA is supposed to perform studies concerning the recreational use of their impoundment AND TAILWATER... this is often described in terms of "angler days or angler hours" when it comes to fishing. The data suggests and the TWRA biologist confirm that this has long been a favorite tailwater fisher with sustainable year around opportunities EXCEPT that the flows suck!

So they need to dump water, generate or whatever... like I care! Do it at night!

I could do this for you guys & any river you want to change the flow regime, minimum flow etc. Heck, would you like more PUBLIC ACCESS?

It is entirely likely we could MAKE TVA buy riverfront for parking and access.... I have done this many times.

If you don't ask, don't demand and don't stand up you don't get ****.

Sorry for the loooong diatribe; I know so many of you are frustrated... but WE can re-write how things are traditionally done. I've taken on the hydro power industry before and I'm not afraid of the TVA, TWRA or FERC..... they on the other hand ought be afraid of US..... it's the PEOPLES RIVER, NOT THEIR RIVER.... CLAIM IT!