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MadisonBoats
09-12-2012, 09:15 AM
Brown/Brook Trout: Spawning Notes

Many of you know that the brown & brook trout are pre-spawning or spawning right now and will continue through November. Although most of their efforts are in vain on the Clinch; I would love to see them have the best opportunity for results. I personally prefer catching brown trout. However; I am aware that this time of year is technically less sporting in catching them due to their vulnerability while spawning.

Here are some things I think we should consider and promote:


Do not harvest any browns during this time frame [Sept-Mar].
Obey the Clear Creek Off-Limits Zone.TWRA Trout Regulation: Clear Creek (tributary to Clinch River— Anderson Co.) Closed to fishing and minnow seining from Hwy. 441 upstream to the second dam (adjacent to the city of Norris water tower), as posted from Nov. 1–Mar. 31. [Report or post pictures of fishermen would are not honorable to this TWRA Regulation]*I know many fish mongers sneak in there at night and pull out numerous browns that are spawning. Also; I have witnessed many fly fishermen at the mouth of the creek targeting the spawners. It my mind; this is not sporting and is a lousy representation of one's fishing ethic.
Pay special attention to rehabilitate a caught brown before releasing them as they are in a fatigued state because of spawning/courtship.
Report violations by calling the TWRA Region 4 Office at (423) 587-7037. You may get a voice-mail que; leave a message anyhow to note/flag the issue for the officers to get public feedback on areas they need to focus on.
Be mindful of stepping of standing/fishing on any redds. Not that this is a huge issue; but, something to keep in mind in hopes that there could be some reproduction.
Post in this topic your descriptions of violators and tips!

white95v6
09-12-2012, 10:29 AM
ok i get what you are trying to do and its great.heck i like to catch big trout too.

but maybe we should stop/ban fishing for all bass during the spawn? crappie,walleye,etc,etc.

but why are we being soo dang protective over a non-native fish.

MadisonBoats
09-12-2012, 12:07 PM
ok i get what you are trying to do and its great.heck i like to catch big trout too.

but maybe we should stop/ban fishing for all bass during the spawn? crappie,walleye,etc,etc.

but why are we being soo dang protective over a non-native fish.

Basically, it is like hunting deer with spotlights. Or it is like hunting elk in comparison to deer-based on economy of scale in regards to habitat and specie.


The fish are extremely vulnerable to dying when caught (exhaustion, decreased protective instincts, etc.).
Yes, there is a nil chance that their spawning efforts may be successful. However; it is a thoughtful step in promoting the effort made by this fish.
Also; I find it less sportsmanlike to exploit a fish at its most naive state of natural behavior.

Also; most of the fish fly fisherman target are non-native. So; we must promote conservation, education, activism, etc. to ensure that there will continue to be a productive habitat to fish.


Additionally; brown trout are an extreme minority on the Clinch Tailwater and others. Their protection is crucial to their promotion as a sporting species.

white95v6
09-12-2012, 05:52 PM
good explaination. like i said i am with ya for the most part. i enjoy catching trout(even though not on a fly rod).

fourx
09-14-2012, 02:41 PM
The other day I accidentally stepped on a scud.
I held it facing upriver trying to revive it but my attempt was futile.
So, I went home and lit black candles and couldn't even eat or drink anything for 20 mins..

4X

AL trout bum
09-14-2012, 04:28 PM
The other day I accidentally stepped on a scud.

How could you!?!?!? :mad:

guthook
09-14-2012, 04:43 PM
Wouldn't fishing for spawning trout be more akin to hunting rutting deer or gobbling turkeys? There is nothing unsporting about it. People should do what they want. I would prefer they catch and release, but if they don't want to they don't have to...

Scott H.
09-14-2012, 05:45 PM
Wouldn't fishing for spawning trout be more akin to hunting rutting deer or gobbling turkeys? There is nothing unsporting about it. People should do what they want. I would prefer they catch and release, but if they don't want to they don't have to...

Right. And people don't have to follow laws or go to church or do anything they don't want to. .........But there are consequences.

guthook
09-14-2012, 06:32 PM
Easy there Scott. That was quite a jump in logic you took there. Nothing I mentioned was illegal.

And coincidentally, people don't have to go to church... and there are no consequences.

waterwolf
09-14-2012, 10:35 PM
I could care less if folks fish for spawning fish, it is up to each individual to do what they want as long as it is legal.

I have done it, and anyone who feels it is easy is mistaken. It takes incredible skill and luck to be successful, and 99% of the fisherman will fail.

What would erk me, is the poor handling I see examples of all the time being employed on spawning fish, or really any caught fish. There is nothing more rampant than mishandling of fish which are meant to be released. Look around this board from time to time for clear examples. I have fished with a few over the past couple of years that are as bad as any when it comes to properly handling a fish which is meant to be released.

Flat Fly n
09-14-2012, 10:42 PM
The other day I accidentally stepped on a scud.
I held it facing upriver trying to revive it but my attempt was futile.
So, I went home and lit black candles and couldn't even eat or drink anything for 20 mins..

4X

Congrats! I rate this on the LRO BB laugh meter a 9.3!

William
09-14-2012, 10:54 PM
I could care less if folks fish for spawning fish, it is up to each individual to do what they want as long as it is legal.

I have done it, and anyone who feels it is easy is mistaken. It takes incredible skill and luck to be successful, and 99% of the fisherman will fail.

What would erk me, is the poor handling I see examples of all the time being employed on spawning fish, or really any caught fish. There is nothing more rampant than mishandling of fish which are meant to be released. Look around this board from time to time for clear examples. I have fished with a few over the past couple of years that are as bad as any when it comes to properly handling a fish which is meant to be released.

Can you give specific examples of how fish are mishandled?

Scott H.
09-15-2012, 12:00 AM
Easy there Scott. That was quite a jump in logic you took there. Nothing I mentioned was illegal.

And coincidentally, people don't have to go to church... and there are no consequences.

Just making a point about your comment that people should do what they want.
Doing what you want is not always beneficial. I think that Shawn was giving some advice on what would be beneficial to to the ecosystem.



Scott

waterwolf
09-15-2012, 07:31 AM
Can you give specific examples of how fish are mishandled?


Sure and there are plenty of pictures around as examples.

Laying a caught fish on a dry moss covered rock removes it's slime and is considered poor handling.

Using cotton net bags now that rubber net bags have become available, can now be considered poor handling.

Laying a fish in the bottom of a boat for a picture is most certainly poor handling.

I have seen tons of pics in the last few months of fish that are covered in leaves, sticks, and moss which is certainly not indicative of proper handling.

The other incidents have occurred in front of me, dropping fish in the bottom of the boat, grabbing them under their gills to lift, snatching or "popping" the fly out of a fishes mouth etc etc.

I don't care if someone wants to keep fish, but if the intent is to release, than learn how to properly catch and release a fish, and a picture isn't always conducive to proper release when a person is alone.

guthook
09-15-2012, 08:01 AM
Just making a point about your comment that people should do what they want.
Doing what you want is not always beneficial. I think that Shawn was giving some advice on what would be beneficial to to the ecosystem.



Scott


And my point is that the concept of "Liberty" which we all espouse as Americans (I hope) is the idea that we are free from arbitrary rules, etc. What Shawn wants to do is fine for Shawn, however if I want to do things differently I'm well within my rights. In some cases even the game laws we have are rather poor. For instance, the 20 inch limit on smallmouth in the Pigeon River system is the most arbitrary thing I've ever seen. The people that live along the river sure didn't push for that. Guides pushed for it selfishly. I frankly believe that people that want to fish for and keep a limit of 10-15 iinch smallmouth should be able to do it as they've always done.

It's foolish to try to push our ideas on others. If you can change someone's mind that's fine, but if you can't, let it go.

AL trout bum
09-15-2012, 11:31 AM
Sure and there are plenty of pictures around as examples.

Laying a caught fish on a dry moss covered rock removes it's slime and is considered poor handling.

Using cotton net bags now that rubber net bags have become available, can now be considered poor handling.

Laying a fish in the bottom of a boat for a picture is most certainly poor handling.

I have seen tons of pics in the last few months of fish that are covered in leaves, sticks, and moss which is certainly not indicative of proper handling.

The other incidents have occurred in front of me, dropping fish in the bottom of the boat, grabbing them under their gills to lift, snatching or "popping" the fly out of a fishes mouth etc etc.

I don't care if someone wants to keep fish, but if the intent is to release, than learn how to properly catch and release a fish, and a picture isn't always conducive to proper release when a person is alone.

I've seen quite a few of the ol "finger to the gills" too. It's sad.

Varmitcounty
09-15-2012, 11:58 AM
I am 100% with Wolf on this one. You can try to take the poetic zen "river runs through it" viewpoint of the Clinch if you choose, but honestly, it is a put and take river...and in some cases, not even a very good put and take river at that. If we had a naturally reproducing species in the Clinch I would be more inclined to leave them alone when they are doing their thing, but the fact remains that we do not have that situation. I have read numerous thread, and have a very dear friend who talks about the Clinch as if it were the Madison. Sorry. It is a 100% hatchery supported recreational river. Having said that, if you do catch a trout, and you plan on putting it back, think about what you are doing. As I said, I am 100% with Wolf on this one. People taking pictures of average sized fish in poses that are certain to do damage is not a good choice. I have a rule of thumb. Unless it is totally unavoidable, I will do my best to not even take the trout out of the water, and the only fish I will take a photo of is one that tops a personal best. I would have to land a 25 inch bow, 28 inch brown, 14 inch brookie, 18 inch cut, or 42 inch laker before I would ever go for the camera and even then I will not dump this creature in a situation that will kill it.

....dear God....I can't believe I am on Waterwolfs side....LOL

waterwolf
09-15-2012, 12:18 PM
And my point is that the concept of "Liberty" which we all espouse as Americans (I hope) is the idea that we are free from arbitrary rules, etc. What Shawn wants to do is fine for Shawn, however if I want to do things differently I'm well within my rights. In some cases even the game laws we have are rather poor. For instance, the 20 inch limit on smallmouth in the Pigeon River system is the most arbitrary thing I've ever seen. The people that live along the river sure didn't push for that. Guides pushed for it selfishly. I frankly believe that people that want to fish for and keep a limit of 10-15 iinch smallmouth should be able to do it as they've always done.

It's foolish to try to push our ideas on others. If you can change someone's mind that's fine, but if you can't, let it go.
Gotta take issue with you on this one.

When the Pigeon got the new regs there was no guiding going on the river other than whitewater stuff. The regs came about for two reasons, one the dioxin levels in the fish made them unsafe for consumption, and TWRA wanted to experiment with the regs that have been so successful in Virginia.

Many years later almost all of our smallmouth rivers have similar regs, and they are warranted. These fisheries are somewhat fragile and the growth rates of smallmouth in rivers is extremely slow. Floods can knock entire age classes out of a smallmouth river, and heavy fishing pressure can easily lead to a depleted resource. Compare Little River to one of the managed streams for example.

The move by TWRA was awesome and a rare case of them doing something right. 15 years ago when it went in place there were very few of us fishing it, and until the last couple of years has stayed that way. Now it is eve more important to have aggressive management to let the fishery reach it's full potential.

If folks made a habit of eating fish out of the Pigeon it explains a lot about Newport and Cocke county as well.

Just because someone has "always done it" doesn't make it wise. Where would the turkey population be if they let folks continue to use bait trenches? Where would the bass populations in the reservoirs be if slot limits weren't implemented?

The "always done it" view is twisted logic and is rarely if ever applicable in managing anything. Everything around us is in a constant state of change, and rules must change for the best outcomes.

rockhopper
09-15-2012, 01:37 PM
hey 4x sorry about the loss of that poor scud. My wife would like to make dinner for you during this sad time.

I remember the time I killed that stonefly dang near broke my heart! Hey like you said this morning we should set up camp down by the confluence of Clear Creek.

fourx
09-15-2012, 03:52 PM
hey 4x sorry about the loss of that poor scud. My wife would like to make dinner for you during this sad time.

I remember the time I killed that stonefly dang near broke my heart! Hey like you said this morning we should set up camp down by the confluence of Clear Creek.

Could she cook me some trout between 14"-21"? They're best.
Also- I'll be fishing next to the waterwheel if your on clear creek soon.
Also- That nymph you killed had full potential to become an egg- laying adult!
Also- You need to drop your felt soles and switch to temper-pedic ones.
Also- There were WAY too many people fishing at 6:45am this morning!
Y'all need to get a very fast bass boat and hit Loudon instead.
Most crowded I've seen the river in 82yrs. of fishing it.C'mon feb.!

Seriously, like Wolf and M. Boats said, take it easy on the trout, they're my precious babies!

4x

fourx
09-15-2012, 03:55 PM
Also- I miss The Creel. It was the best bar in Knoxville.

4X

MadisonBoats
09-16-2012, 08:26 AM
I find it sad that many men go all their lives and never truly take advantage of an opportunity to show their intellect, courtesy, social endowments, and goodness to a cause!

To speak and to speak well are two things. A fool may talk, but a wise man speaks. ~Ben Jonson

fourx
09-16-2012, 10:41 AM
I find it sad that many men go all their lives and never truly take advantage of an opportunity to show their intellect, courtesy, social endowments, and goodness to a cause!


Dang, Shawn! Lighten up.

4X

Why aren't you posting on the Fishery Management sub-topic anyway?

rockhopper
09-16-2012, 02:03 PM
hey 4x please refrain from trying to make levity and light heartedness! After all I thought fishing was a pastime and hobby .

Have a good time in Idaho.

waterwolf
09-16-2012, 07:27 PM
I find it sad that many men go all their lives and never truly take advantage of an opportunity to show their intellect, courtesy, social endowments, and goodness to a cause!



Agreed, too many folks these days don't have the stones to stand up for what they believe in.

fourx
09-17-2012, 09:32 AM
I find it sad that many men go all their lives and never truly take advantage of an opportunity to show their intellect, courtesy, social endowments, and goodness to a cause!



That's cool. As long as you and wolf aren't talking about me (with refrain in listing the reasons).
Incidentally, a friend of mine of caught a bow bursting with eggs this weekend. So, the spawn is on, whatever the ramications. No, he wasn't near a redd.
BTW- I'm not so sure the clinch bows/browns aren't creating baby trout.
Also, don't forget, there is a sub-topic on this board aimed specifically at those wanting to learn/teach about fishery management and biology.
Everybody that's going to fish during the spawn should spend the xtra $ on Seaguar tippet so they can get the trout in the rubber net as soon as possible (Seaguar doesn't break). Quicker the better!
Let's hear more about eagles, newbies asking questions, and fun days fishing on this sub-topic.

4X
Now' I'm going to walk down and feed and hug my Canadian geese.

MadisonBoats
09-19-2012, 07:59 AM
That's cool.As long as you and wolf aren't talking about me (with refrain in listing the reasons).My last post was to reaffirm the topic and to try and elicit thoughtful contributions to this topic and other issues in regards to our sport. It was not directed towards any one person. My intent was to add perspective and promote stewardship toward a common interest.

Incidentally, a friend of mine of caught a bow bursting with eggs this weekend. So, the spawn is on, whatever the ramications. No, he wasn't near a redd.I have found numerous egg sacks of gutted fish lately full of eggs-brown and rainbow trout!

BTW- I'm not so sure the clinch bows/browns aren't creating baby trout.From my research and experience; the browns and rainbow spawn and reproduce on the Clinch. The percentage that acheive fry are relatively low and do not support the management of the river's mortality (depletion) rate. If you look closely to shallow pools around downed trees, etc; you will see small schools or rainbow. Also; you can view large schools of brown fry around clear creek after the turn of the year.
Also, don't forget, there is a sub-topic on this board aimed specifically at those wanting to learn/teach about fishery management and biology.
Everybody that's going to fish during the spawn should spend the xtra $ on Seaguar tippet so they can get the trout in the rubber net as soon as possible (Seaguar doesn't break). Quicker the better!
Let's hear more about eagles, newbies asking questions, and fun days fishing on this sub-topic.

4X
Now' I'm going to walk down and feed and hug my Canadian geese.I have never fished Seaguar. Do you find that it is more stiff than other tippets? I will give it a try the next time I see a spool in the store.

fourx
09-19-2012, 02:13 PM
Seaguar is my tippet of choice on 6 or 7X. It's very supple in that diameter.
Yes, it's expensive, but 6X in Seaguar is way stronger then many other brands. I fish Rio leaders with Seaguar tippet as a rule. Rio IMO is second strongest tippet. Seaguar's worth it cause you can hustle the trout into the net and you don't lose the big one. I've caught several over 20" in 6X on the area rivers. Don't forget to spit on your knots and pull them down slowwly.

4X

waterwolf
09-19-2012, 08:28 PM
Seaguar is my tippet of choice on 6 or 7X. It's very supple in that diameter.
Yes, it's expensive, but 6X in Seaguar is way stronger then many other brands. I fish Rio leaders with Seaguar tippet as a rule. Rio IMO is second strongest tippet. Seaguar's worth it cause you can hustle the trout into the net and you don't lose the big one. I've caught several over 20" in 6X on the area rivers. Don't forget to spit on your knots and pull them down slowwly.

4X

I'll see your Seaguar and raise you Frog Hair Flouro, best stuff I have ever used.
Don't get me wrong Seaguar is good stuff, I just think frog hair is better.

Oh and the rainbows in the clinch successfully spawn far more than most realize. Madison spoke of it already, but the proof is all over the river right now. I am not sure about browns but it is very possible.

IMO folks who deny this either have an agenda or just haven't taken the time to look around.

Flat Fly n
09-19-2012, 09:59 PM
I'll see your Seaguar and raise you Frog Hair Flouro, best stuff I have ever used.
Don't get me wrong Seaguar is good stuff, I just think frog hair is better.

Oh and the rainbows in the clinch successfully spawn far more than most realize. Madison spoke of it already, but the proof is all over the river right now. I am not sure about browns but it is very possible.

IMO folks who deny this either have an agenda or just haven't taken the time to look around.

Is it all those cigarette butts floating down the river that gives indications that spawning is going on?

waterwolf
09-19-2012, 10:16 PM
Is it all those cigarette butts floating down the river that gives indications that spawning is going on?
AS discussed here over the years at length there is thousands upon thousands of young of the year rainbows in the system right now. If the river wasn't red mud, it would be simple to go get a net full in most areas near the bank.

I am not referring to fingerling stocked size fish, but 2" long fish which came from naturally reproducing rainbows, since all fingerling stocks are larger and have been done months ago.

This has been going on for eons, and during the mid-late 90's I worked 3 nights a week with TVA biologists to help increase the success rates of fish spawning in the river during January and February. During that time period we surveyed hundreds of redds, and also collected thousands of eggs and sperm which we used to fertilize and ultimately raise around 700,000 fish annually. AT some point TWRA and Eagle bend fish hatchery took over the project and it lasted another year or two, then it was abandoned.

To the non-believers I pose a serious question. Anyone who has fished the river during peak rainbow spawning periods has certainly seen all the redds up and down the river. If you haven't than maybe a little eduction is needed in identifying redds or new sunglasses are required. The question which I want answered by the nay sayers, is that why these fish can't be successful?

I say it is impossible for them to NOT be successful, based on the simple fact that trout naturally reproduce in much harsher conditions, with much worse spawning grounds.

So make your case, and stop with the inane attempts to be funny. Man up and make your case.

Flat Fly n
09-20-2012, 11:27 AM
OK, no more cig jokes.........

Personally I think it is the generation schedules on the Clinch that hurts.
S. Holston has much less inflow and therefore less outflow as the Clinch. It's not uncommon for a one hour pulse on the S. Holston to maintain minimal flow and DO. It is however UNCOMMON on the Clich for anything less than 8 or more hours of 6-7K CFS flow, everyday, secondary to the massive amount of drainage areas the two rivers behind Norris control, especially in a normal to wet season. My two cents on why reproduction/spawing to adult natives is sparse at best.

Serious enough?

waterwolf
09-20-2012, 12:01 PM
OK, no more cig jokes.........

Personally I think it is the generation schedules on the Clinch that hurts.
S. Holston has much less inflow and therefore less outflow as the Clinch. It's not uncommon for a one hour pulse on the S. Holston to maintain minimal flow and DO. It is however UNCOMMON on the Clich for anything less than 8 or more hours of 6-7K CFS flow, everyday, secondary to the massive amount of drainage areas the two rivers behind Norris control, especially in a normal to wet season. My two cents on why reproduction/spawing to adult natives is sparse at best.

Serious enough?

Okay, then explain how naturally sustaining populations of rainbows/browns occur in free flowing rivers that suffer much greater flow fluctuations than the Clinch ever could?

How does little river support a wild population? During the rainbow spawn the flows on that river are generally high.

In addition, areas where most of the redds will be found, will be areas of deeper gravel, these areas are not subjected to the heavy flows that the remainder of the river is, hence the presence of a smaller substrate which would easily be scoured during high flows if it were in an area where current flows were heavy.

Come on Phil, give it another shot :biggrin: This is a trick question BTW.

Flat Fly n
09-20-2012, 07:04 PM
Waterwolf,
I personally don't care, and whatever I or anyone else says on this board it is wrong in your educated mind! Remind me again of your college degree or degrees....., fisheries biology, microbiology, wildlife biology, because I am surely impressed with it. I don't claim to know or want to know all the answers regarding why there are no spawning or true native adult fish on the Clinch. Why don't you just tag the fish you think are native, and study them. Do DNA checks on them for all I care. Heck I just work in heart surgery for a living, I don't know all the fishing answers and I just want to think I have a shot at a few big fish when I go to a tailwater in TN, and I look at this board for some entertainment from time to time to escape and unwind.

waterwolf
09-20-2012, 08:06 PM
Waterwolf,
I personally don't care, and whatever I or anyone else says on this board it is wrong in your educated mind! Remind me again of your college degree or degrees....., fisheries biology, microbiology, wildlife biology, because I am surely impressed with it. I don't claim to know or want to know all the answers regarding why there are no spawning or true native adult fish on the Clinch. Why don't you just tag the fish you think are native, and study them. Do DNA checks on them for all I care. Heck I just work in heart surgery for a living, I don't know all the fishing answers and I just want to think I have a shot at a few big fish when I go to a tailwater in TN, and I look at this board for some entertainment from time to time to escape and unwind.

This is what happens every time, the argument against natural reproduction comes up. TWRA follows the exact same talk track. I remember watching Buxbaum almost bring Frank Fiss to tears by posing the same points I did, and Frank's answers were the exact same as yours. And always result in a personal attack or two rather than a good counter argument.

I seriously doubt that my Marketing degree from UT qualifies me for anything other than selling medical devices. However, I have always tried to be extremely observant on the river, and try to understand this stuff from a logical rather than an emotional point of view.

That is why I asked the questions to you, so I can understand your point of view.

It is easy to suspect that the flows on the Clinch have an impact, however when I step back and think about where fish spawn, and other rivers where they successfully do so, I can't make the flow argument add up to no success.

No one seems to have an answer to the tons of fry/fingerlings in the river right now. Logic to me adds 2+2 and the only reasonable explanation is successful spawning. I think we all can agree they don't fall into the river by way of raindrops.

The best hope for the Clinch and taking the management by TWRA to a whole new level, one which we fly fisherman would love, is to prove that the fish are spawning successfully.

My question is why go with personal attacks? I can play that game even better if you wish to take that approach, but I would rather discuss this stuff using logical reasoning to maybe get closer to an answer. And if my points are absurd than please elaborate, I always try and comprehend even though it may not sink in :)

MadisonBoats
09-21-2012, 07:56 AM
This is what happens every time, the argument against natural reproduction comes up. TWRA follows the exact same talk track. I remember watching Buxbaum almost bring Frank Fiss to tears by posing the same points I did, and Frank's answers were the exact same as yours. And always result in a personal attack or two rather than a good counter argument.

I seriously doubt that my Marketing degree from UT qualifies me for anything other than selling medical devices. However, I have always tried to be extremely observant on the river, and try to understand this stuff from a logical rather than an emotional point of view.

That is why I asked the questions to you, so I can understand your point of view.

It is easy to suspect that the flows on the Clinch have an impact, however when I step back and think about where fish spawn, and other rivers where they successfully do so, I can't make the flow argument add up to no success.

No one seems to have an answer to the tons of fry/fingerlings in the river right now. Logic to me adds 2+2 and the only reasonable explanation is successful spawning. I think we all can agree they don't fall into the river by way of raindrops.

The best hope for the Clinch and taking the management by TWRA to a whole new level, one which we fly fisherman would love, is to prove that the fish are spawning successfully.

My question is why go with personal attacks? I can play that game even better if you wish to take that approach, but I would rather discuss this stuff using logical reasoning to maybe get closer to an answer. And if my points are absurd than please elaborate, I always try and comprehend even though it may not sink in :)

Jim,
I think your posts were well put and inquisitive. I did not see any personal attack? I agree with you that there are natural reproduction on the Clinch. I believe rainbow trout reproduce fairly well and brown trout reproduce well in one certain area; hence their increased percentage in that area and above.:smile: The brook trout seem to spawn and thrive lately as well. Here is a little rainbow trout I caught last year in September.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/304406_10150388034408319_276679645_n.jpg

waterwolf
09-21-2012, 08:38 AM
Jim,
I think your posts were well put and inquisitive. I did not see any personal attack? I agree with you that there are natural reproduction on the Clinch. I believe rainbow trout reproduce fairly well and brown trout reproduce well in one certain area; hence their increased percentage in that area and above.:smile: The brook trout seem to spawn and thrive lately as well. Here is a little rainbow trout I caught last year in September.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/304406_10150388034408319_276679645_n.jpg
Nice picture, and there is no debating where a fish of that size comes from, not during September.

The Gubna
09-21-2012, 03:23 PM
I'm sure the following study has been reviewed and discussed on this forum in the past: http://www.tn.gov/twra/fish/StreamRiver/tailtrout/BrownTroutReproduction2006.pdf
From a quick glance, it looks like temperature on the Clinch during brown trout spawning season may be at least part of the issue. The report indicates that rainbow trout reproduction has been documented on the Clinch. I must admit, I kept wondering as I was reading this thread about the references to Rainbows spawning in the Spring. I realize there are many exceptions, but I was under the impression that brown trout generally spawned in the Fall, while Rainbows spawned in the Spring.

David Knapp
09-21-2012, 05:42 PM
I'm sure the following study has been reviewed and discussed on this forum in the past: http://www.tn.gov/twra/fish/StreamRiver/tailtrout/BrownTroutReproduction2006.pdf
From a quick glance, it looks like temperature on the Clinch during brown trout spawning season may be at least part of the issue. The report indicates that rainbow trout reproduction has been documented on the Clinch. I must admit, I kept wondering as I was reading this thread about the references to Rainbows spawning in the Spring. I realize there are many exceptions, but I was under the impression that brown trout generally spawned in the Fall, while Rainbows spawned in the Spring.

There are both fall and spring spawning rainbows on the Clinch as well as some other tailwaters in Tennessee...browns only spawn in the fall though I believe...

waterwolf
09-21-2012, 06:49 PM
The vast majority of rainbow spawning and the only I have ever witnessed usually is around Martin Luther king day. I have rarely witnessed browns on Redds in the river, but I also have never spent much time on the river during the fall.

fourx
09-22-2012, 05:00 AM
Jim,
You were mean to Phil and you spelled "educated" wrong in one of your posts on this thread.
We enjoy being "inane" and catchin big ones!

4X aka Dr. Staab

Grumpy
09-22-2012, 07:41 AM
I've been following this thread with interest, being told 1,000 times that there is no reproduction on the Caney Fork here near Nashville. Yet, no one can explain 1-2" fry that we've seen in the river.
Like the Clinch, the flows on the Caney aren't in the favor of a spawn, however, the feeder creeks that dump into the river are.
I've never been given an answer on the small fry that we've found, my High School education & what little i do know about the spawn tells me there is some positive results though.
The way i look at it, if 10 wild fish survive a spawn & avoid being fried or grilled, the river is a better place.

Grumpy

silvercreek
09-22-2012, 09:26 AM
You seeing rainbow or brown fry? Byron in a post or in his fishing report said that when he lived in the area and fished the Caney, he also saw fry in the feeder streams. I would not be surprised to see brown trout fry. There is some decent gravel in the Caney and with the constant 250cfs it stays underwater. I doubt there will ever be a sustained population though.

Joe Congleton
09-22-2012, 10:22 AM
When the five man working group drafted the economic analysis for Riverine Alternatives to Tellico Dam we were tasked with creating suggestions for improving the Little T tailwater -- and told to use our imagination. I suggested that a spawning channel be constucted below Chilhowee Dam and in the process of discussing this it was noted that the Clinch could be improved by constructing a similar channel below Norris dam. Shallow , wide, optimal spawning flows at spawning times, overhead fenced and predator protected. Then managed for fry protection until fry moved to river naturally or otherwise. Basically diverting cleAr creek fish to a biologically welcoming home.

Frankly if the GAO Fish and Wildlife funding issues are not addressed successfully the spawning channel concept could come to be a viable alternative to improving fish counts in the river. Tva owns the land where the channels would be constructed and a relatively small amount of water is all that qould required to cover the channel.

There is already an enormous amount of spawning gravel stretches in the river and some fish appear to be successfully spawning there. In the really big picture however our claims of spawning fish could be thrown in our face as an excuse by TVA not to undertake the nearly one million dollar annual contribution for hatchery costs that FWS may no lomger make--theory being hatchery unnecessary if fish are surviving naturally.

There is not much question that the entire hatchery funding issue is the most critical issue facing all of us in Tenn that love the tailwater trout fishing. Not poaching ,water quality, or minimum flows. It will dramtically affect the trout world and fishing we currently enjoy. TU leaders and TWRA are trying to respond to this threat but it is a very complicated issue on political and legal fronts. "mitigation' is not a term that TVA appreciates at this time.

waterwolf
09-22-2012, 03:25 PM
Jim,
You were mean to Phil and you spelled "educated" wrong in one of your posts on this thread.
We enjoy being "inane" and catchin big ones!

4X aka Dr. Staab

I went back and read my posts and never found anything mean, maybe I missed it and being mean to Phil would never cross my mind.

I have known Phil for 15 years, **** I even house sat for him eons ago. I would hope he knows me well enough to know I wouldn't be nasty towards him. We share a difference of opinion which is no different than a lot of folks.

As for the misspelling, oh well we can't all be perfect I guess. By the way, I never catch any big ones, lmao. I guess you are he only one :rolleyes:

Med Student
09-22-2012, 04:07 PM
Waterwolf,

I know that this is not the the right place for this but since there are no pm's I didn't know how to contact you. I have been reading some of the past forums and I had a question for you about fishing the upper clinch above the lake. If you could contact me at fishingpro06 at aol dot com I would greatly appreciate it.

thanks

MadisonBoats
09-24-2012, 07:44 AM
........

There is not much question that the entire hatchery funding issue is the most critical issue facing all of us in Tenn that love the tailwater trout fishing. Not poaching ,water quality, or minimum flows. It will dramtically affect the trout world and fishing we currently enjoy. TU leaders and TWRA are trying to respond to this threat but it is a very complicated issue on political and legal fronts. "mitigation' is not a term that TVA appreciates at this time.

I agree Joe! We all need to continue discussing these issues and voice our opinions to representatives and in the voting booths. No matter what; we all share a similar passion whether we disagree or agree on posts. That passion needs to be protected and funded appropriately. The costs of rehabilitation will be ten times the cost of maintenance.

Flat Fly n
09-24-2012, 08:24 PM
Gentlemen of this forum and Waterwolf,
I guess you see nothing wrong with this statement from the guy who continues to call "TWRA idiots and to grow some *****(gonads, Paula said not to say that word)" from previous posts...

WW, you said to me ......"So make your case, and stop with the inane attempts to be funny. Man up and make your case."

Man up? Young man, you don't know me enough to publicly over the internet tell me to "man up". When someone can stay married for greater than 30 years, hold a job for over 25 years with his group in a high stress high risk operations, as well as publish numerous papers, the later to be released this week don't tell me to "man up". I have raised a family and paid for my education without a DIME from my high school educated parents so you have no right to tell me to MAN UP over a freaking joke about whether or not spawing is going on in the Clinch. No trust funds for me! You then attempted to try and goad me into an answer on the difference of the Clinch vs S. Holston so I can be shot down by someone acting as a professor without a scientific basis.

Everyone is wrong about this river, and trout fisheries in general except for you. My beef is there is no enforcement, your beef is with everyone at TWRA and everyone that disagrees with you. If I had a dollar for everytime someone from TWRA was called an idiot either on here or tndeer.com, I would have a cabin on the Big Horn bought and paid by you. you even argued and corrected FourX when he mentioned he liked Seaguar tippet recently.... WTF does it matter what he likes, why try to correct a guy that cathches some really nice fish what is better?

Write whatever reply you wish and enjoy your podium professor, I'm dropping your class and won't return.

waterwolf
09-24-2012, 10:58 PM
I think I was pretty clear in my post above, and will leave it at that.

Corbo
09-25-2012, 06:54 AM
Fellas, Fellas, Fellas.... since we are having another pissing contest might I mention that the trout I catch on the Clinch are so humungous I now cast a 12 weight?

Geezum; it's a fishing forum.... go soak in some cold water and chill out.

David Knapp
09-25-2012, 10:09 AM
Winter should be great this year!!! :rolleyes: :eek:

cockeye valdez
09-25-2012, 10:24 AM
I plan to fish the Clinch more this winter than past, or at least give it more effort. I have concentrated on spring, summer and now fall on the Clinch and it has been a learning experience. Thanks to you and some other guys on the forum, my opinion of the river is changing. My experience has been (for years) on the So.Ho. and winter there is b.w.o.s, midge pupa and emergers.

Talk more about winter fishing please. I've heard that slinging streamers and small midges work.

Thanks for changing the direction of the discussion David.

c.v.

David Knapp
09-25-2012, 11:04 AM
I plan to fish the Clinch more this winter than past, or at least give it more effort. I have concentrated on spring, summer and now fall on the Clinch and it has been a learning experience. Thanks to you and some other guys on the forum, my opinion of the river is changing. My experience has been (for years) on the So.Ho. and winter there is b.w.o.s, midge pupa and emergers.

Talk more about winter fishing please. I've heard that slinging streamers and small midges work.

Thanks for changing the direction of the discussion David.

c.v.

Big streamers fished out of a boat on high water = perhaps the most fun on any Tennessee trout tailwater...in my humble opinion. Love winter when the crowds are gone but the fish are still hungry!!! The browns will be hungry when they come off the spawn and December through February is prime time to chase them with streamers...

cockeye valdez
09-25-2012, 12:47 PM
wading ? I fished from a drift boat last Saturday and it reminded me of why I love wading so much. Any advice for wading ? Still sling streamers ?
c.v.

David Knapp
09-25-2012, 01:20 PM
Streamers can be effective while wading, especially right now, but in the winter you should be fishing nymphs and midges just like you are used to on the SoHo. Add some eggs and copper johns to attract the recently spawning fish and you should be good to go...

Give the boat thing a chance though. It is really awesome and worth the learning curve. There's nothing like throwing streamers out of a boat and seeing a huge shadow appear behind your fly with mouth open...

MadisonBoats
09-26-2012, 07:45 AM
In winter; I like to throw larger dry and emergent midges. Especially on the light wind days. Like David posted; it is a opportunistic time to catch brown trout. I am still trying to work on fishing more streamers. However; it is tough to pass up a chance to fish dries. They like the unique dry flies and stimulator flies as well!

I got this guy on an orange palmer (dry).
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/700_49231338318_8874_n.jpg

Corbo
09-27-2012, 06:11 AM
Show Off! LOL

cockeye valdez
09-27-2012, 09:45 AM
Shawn, ever tie an emergent midge under the larger dry ?
c.v.

David Knapp
09-27-2012, 12:03 PM
Shawn, that is a beautiful brown there! Talk about inspiration to go fishing...

Breck
09-27-2012, 09:55 PM
Shawn, excellent!!!!! I'll be in touch soon!!

Breck

MadisonBoats
09-28-2012, 07:22 AM
Shawn, ever tie an emergent midge under the larger dry ?
c.v.

CV; not that often. I know it works well and it is a great setup. However; I kind of fish my dry flies dynamically and it would inhibit that technique.:biggrin:

Shawn, that is a beautiful brown there! Talk about inspiration to go fishing... Thanks bud! Hope you are doing well out West...

Shawn, excellent!!!!! I'll be in touch soon!!

Breck Breck, any time bud...

Thunderhead8
09-28-2012, 08:07 AM
Folks, Shawn wasn't handing down the 10 Comandments. He is an experienced fisherman sharing thoughts on fishing the spawn. I have heard Byron say the same things this time of year. I believe 99.9% of us fish legally. But over that legality, we each superimpose our own code of ethics. That is fine. Shawn shared his and the rationale for it. I agree with it. I have yet to catch my first "monster" brown, but when I do it won't be a spawning brown. If you catch a huge spawning brown legally, congratulations!

fourx
09-30-2012, 06:02 PM
Gentlemen of this forum and Waterwolf,
I guess you see nothing wrong with this statement from the guy who continues to call "TWRA idiots and to grow some *****(gonads, Paula said not to say that word)" from previous posts...

WW, you said to me ......"So make your case, and stop with the inane attempts to be funny. Man up and make your case."

Man up? Young man, you don't know me enough to publicly over the internet tell me to "man up". When someone can stay married for greater than 30 years, hold a job for over 25 years with his group in a high stress high risk operations, as well as publish numerous papers, the later to be released this week don't tell me to "man up". I have raised a family and paid for my education without a DIME from my high school educated parents so you have no right to tell me to MAN UP over a freaking joke about whether or not spawing is going on in the Clinch. No trust funds for me! You then attempted to try and goad me into an answer on the difference of the Clinch vs S. Holston so I can be shot down by someone acting as a professor without a scientific basis.

Everyone is wrong about this river, and trout fisheries in general except for you. My beef is there is no enforcement, your beef is with everyone at TWRA and everyone that disagrees with you. If I had a dollar for everytime someone from TWRA was called an idiot either on here or tndeer.com, I would have a cabin on the Big Horn bought and paid by you. you even argued and corrected FourX when he mentioned he liked Seaguar tippet recently.... WTF does it matter what he likes, why try to correct a guy that cathches some really nice fish what is better?

Write whatever reply you wish and enjoy your podium professor, I'm dropping your class and won't return.

Just got back from fishing ID to find this post.
Sorry to see the the direction this thread went.
I consider you and Wolf friends of mine. Knowing Wolf for a long time I can only compare him to a shot of Cuervo...you either cringe or smile when you drink it.
I would like the tail water threads to take on the light/informative tone of the back country and smoky mtn. threads!
I had a great ID trip that you can check out in the "other states" thread.

Peace,
4X

waterwolf
09-30-2012, 10:33 PM
Just got back from fishing ID to find this post.
Sorry to see the the direction this thread went.
I consider you and Wolf friends of mine. Knowing Wolf for a long time I can only compare him to a shot of Cuervo...you either cringe or smile when you drink it.
I would like the tail water threads to take on the light/informative tone of the back country and smoky mtn. threads!
I had a great ID trip that you can check out in the "other states" thread.

Peace,
4X
Same for me Steve, and I would have thought Phil would have taken my post with a little err to the tongue in cheek side of things, but obviously he didn't. I have seen Phil numerous times over the past 6 months or so in the hospital and we always share a good laugh or two before heading our separate ways.

Literally I don't think there is anything you, he, or any of the other bunches of folks I know personally on this board could say that would even cause me to consider being upset.

I know you all too well, and nothing said via keyboard would ever cause me to get angry or upset.

Glad you had a good trip, and see you on the river.