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cockeye valdez
09-17-2012, 10:16 AM
I fished Saturday morning, had a midge hatch and then caught a bug that looked like a green drake. Maybe an #18, trout were not taking them strong but were sipping them under the film.
Anyone see these bugs ? Am I correct, are they green Drakes ?
c.v.

waterwolf
09-17-2012, 11:18 AM
Hard to imagine a size 18 looking likeany Drake I have ever seen. Drakes are large bugs.

fourx
09-17-2012, 03:31 PM
If it had an olive body and slate grey wings, the size sounds like a blue wing olive. It would be an oddity to see these in any numbers on the Clinch (unfortunately).

4X

cockeye valdez
09-18-2012, 09:06 AM
fourx, I have seen b.w.o.s and this was similar but different in that the thorax was much thiner and darker and the legs similar to a water bug. When I first saw them coming off I thought the same but when I caught one, I didn't think so. I don't carry a camera and have drowned my cel phone twice this summer so taking a pic with it was not possible.
I saw a pic last week on the message board but cannot find it. thanks for offering, you maybe correct.
c.v.

Flat Fly n
09-18-2012, 02:37 PM
There is a small cranefly hatching on the Clinch right now. It doesn't sit still like a mayfly on the surface, but skims it. It doesn't bounce around like a caddis does either. Does this sound like what you saw?

cockeye valdez
09-18-2012, 03:17 PM
you're a genius, that is exactly what it was. You're also correct in that they just skitter on the top. Trout were sipping in the film not taking them on top. I caught a very nice fish on a split case emerger, I wonder if they were taking crane flies as they emerged or something else.

I don't see that as a easy tie ?
c.v.

fourx
09-18-2012, 03:22 PM
Dang Phil! You are a genius.
Leaving for Silver Creek, etc. sat., we need an entomologist!

4X

Flat Fly n
09-18-2012, 06:12 PM
How about a #18 deer hair or cdc gray caddis? Fake it if you can't join 'em! If dead drift doesn't work, skid it over the surface in short strips.

Stay thirsty my friends!

Flat Fly n
09-18-2012, 06:15 PM
Dang Phil! You are a genius.
Leaving for Silver Creek, etc. sat., we need an entomologist!

4X

Have a great time! I wouldn't go back out there unless I had ten pounds of Valium with me! Toughest place I have ever fished! Beautiful however!

The sign in at Silver Creek.
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee78/tnflyfish/99a6a404.jpg

Flat Fly n
09-18-2012, 07:21 PM
The Cockeyed Valdez! Just for you! HA! Seriously, many CDC patterns out there or a small gray deer hair caddis should work.

I screwed the head up a bit but I used 240 Denier thread because i am tying saltwater stuff tonight so I didn't go 6/0 and just happened to have an #18 2488H TMC hook sitting around.

I even threw in some legs for you.... I would use a lighter dun CDC but I am running dry from the sulphur season.... Thread body is all you need.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee78/tnflyfish/IMGP0121_zps3fb2238f.jpg

Joe Congleton
09-18-2012, 08:47 PM
As a matter of information a biologist who has done entomological identification in more detail than anyone for a span of about thirty plus years on the Clinch has never found any BWO in any stage on the Clinch in any of his sample points on the tailwater. This is evidence based on insects "keyed " under magnification of adult stage. That is the only way to correctly ID a species. mAny

Many people talk about BWO ( and some even publish hatch charts showing BWO )in Clinch tailwater but scientific evidence does not support the BWO presence in the tailwater below Norris dam Fwiw.

MadisonBoats
09-19-2012, 08:26 AM
As a matter of information a biologist who has done entomological identification in more detail than anyone for a span of about thirty plus years on the Clinch has never found any BWO in any stage on the Clinch in any of his sample points on the tailwater. This is evidence based on insects "keyed " under magnification of adult stage. That is the only way to correctly ID a species. mAny

Many people talk about BWO ( and some even publish hatch charts showing BWO )in Clinch tailwater but scientific evidence does not support the BWO presence in the tailwater below Norris dam Fwiw.

I have witnessed BWOs on the Clinch and they are rare. I respect the conclusion and clarity that an educated biologist can add to keying bugs. However; it is imperative to sample the river often and during all the different climate patterns on the river to truly have a clear view of the bug diversity. Additionally; I have reviewed many of the sample reports from biologists and the sample dates range from months to years. Clearly indicating huge voids of time that may have different species hatching.

To hear a true biologist or scientist say NEVER or NOT would surprise me as it would be unsuitable to the ideal of science. Most would say have not been documented or supported as of yet.

Joe Congleton
09-19-2012, 09:06 AM
Rule 4 - dont shoot the measenger.

Flat Fly n
09-19-2012, 01:11 PM
I say we go get some nymphs from the S. Holston and plant them in the lower Clinch! I would look forward to BWO's hatching on some cold cloudy day by the thousands about 10 years from now! HA

fourx
09-19-2012, 02:24 PM
I say we go get some nymphs from the S. Holston and plant them in the lower Clinch! I would look forward to BWO's hatching on some cold cloudy day by the thousands about 10 years from now! HA

You got that right Homey!

4X

cockeye valdez
09-19-2012, 03:30 PM
I'm still stuck on the "Cockeyed Valdez" c.d.c. crane fly imitation. Will you be applying for a patent for that ? Will I become famous like Waterwolf ?
c.v.

waterwolf
09-19-2012, 06:21 PM
I say we go get some nymphs from the S. Holston and plant them in the lower Clinch! I would look forward to BWO's hatching on some cold cloudy day by the thousands about 10 years from now! HA
If the habitat was right they would be here, it is not and they aren't
I'm still stuck on the "Cockeyed Valdez" c.d.c. crane fly imitation. Will you be applying for a patent for that ? Will I become famous like Waterwolf ?
c.v.

going to have to do a lot to reach my standing;). A decade in a fly shop, another 8 as a guide, an outspoken ***, boyish charm, and rapier wit will help.

Corbo
09-19-2012, 06:31 PM
Habitat for bugs?

The soho has bugs the Clinch does not have because the soho tailwater got them from streams nearby.

I like Flat's idea; but we would need to collect zillions of them and I bet it is not against the law either!

waterwolf
09-19-2012, 07:56 PM
Habitat for bugs?

The soho has bugs the Clinch does not have because the soho tailwater got them from streams nearby.

I like Flat's idea; but we would need to collect zillions of them and I bet it is not against the law either!

This is biology 101, if the habitat is conducive and inside a species natural range the species will exist unless eliminated by extreme circumstances. Literarily taken from an intro to biology text book.

Flat's idea sounds good in theory, but won't work, and habitat is just one of the issues.

Please elaborate on all these tribs to the South Holston?

Flat Fly n
09-19-2012, 10:12 PM
Good theory there Wolfie, but, there weren't any trout in the Clinch until TWRA put them there. They wouldn't just show up from Melton Hill even if the conditions were correct. There is not one cutthroat trout in that river BUT the conditions are right for that species to exist there.

Now a long story I heard many years ago (back from the 80's)is that a bunch of old fart fly guys transplanted sulphurs into the Clinch as well...true, I don't know, but it would be a blast to try it. What's it going to hurt? Fish part of the day, turn rocks over, shake em into buckets and drive back to K'town and dump them. It's not like your introducing a harmful species into a macrosystem anyway. pH, temp, food source, and O2, what more can you want?

After we are long gone someone would be having a blast on some crappy weather days.

waterwolf
09-19-2012, 10:22 PM
Good theory there Wolfie, but, there weren't any trout in the Clinch until TWRA put them there. They wouldn't just show up from Melton Hill even if the conditions were correct. There is not one cutthroat trout in that river BUT the conditions are right for that species to exist there.

Now a long story I heard many years ago (back from the 80's)is that a bunch of old fart fly guys transplanted sulphurs into the Clinch as well...true, I don't know, but it would be a blast to try it. What's it going to hurt? Fish part of the day, turn rocks over, shake em into buckets and drive back to K'town and dump them. It's not like your introducing a harmful species into a macrosystem anyway. pH, temp, food source, and O2, what more can you want?

After we are long gone someone would be having a blast on some crappy weather days.



I clearly, and I mean clearly state that "inside a species' natural range". Last I checked rainbows and cutthroats have never existed anywhere near the Clinch river, nor has any trout ever been documented as occupying the Clinch river drainage until Norris Dam was built.

With your attempt to try and bring something in that can't survive obviously, what else might you transport in? How are you going to transport these bugs and keep them alive on a 3 hour drive? How much damage is potentially done to the host river where these bugs are collected?

All the above are legitimate questions, and the simple idea that if you bring them it will work, is forgetting about a million laws of nature and biology.

Try again.:biggrin:

MadisonBoats
09-20-2012, 08:19 AM
There are specific reasons why certain bugs thrive in certain rivers. If a certain type of bug can thrive in the Clinch; then, it will mostly be present in the Clinch. However; I do believe there are some anomalies and climate related factors.

I my opinion; the most important factor in the Clinch's biological make up is PH factor that many callously dissuade. Ignoring man-made influences; the PH factor is dictated by the geological make up of the watershed and riverbed. The geological substrate acts as a filter and non-filter in certain areas of E. TN. Additionally; TN is a Karst topography zone and has numerous caves and sinkholes that pass through limestone systems. Much of the rock structures that have been mined pass through these underground streams and mix with other rock structures that make them caustic and create higher PH levels. Slight differences in PH can greatly influence the entomological make up of a river.

So; by looking at a map of geological substrate and overlaying it with a particular river system; one can generally see differences in PH influences.

Sample link to academic study to illustrate idea:
http://www.mendeley.com/research/effects-acidic-ph-benthic-macroinvertebrate-communities-stream-microcosms/

waterwolf
09-20-2012, 09:51 AM
The Clinch above Norris has great blue wing hatches, and has the same geologic structure as the clinch

Flat Fly n
09-20-2012, 10:59 AM
The Clinch above Norris has great blue wing hatches, and has the same geologic structure as the clinch

Waterwolf,
I hereby appoint you in charge of Norris lake BWO subset and I'll handle the S. Holston subset. I am formally applying for a Federal Grant to bring Tricos from Silver Creek back to the Clinch as well!

We will band their little legs much like ducks and do a viability study based on dissolved oxygen and how global/local warming from Oak Ridge has effected the Clinch. Corbo will be in charge of coliform counts effecting the lower Clinch, and yes, Cockeye Valdez will monitor cranefly predation on the BWO nymphs! Of course, Madison Boats will monitor lime deposits based on flow schedules as it degrades the into the water, thus effecting pH.

BTW, a miniturized oxygenator (battery powered O2 delivery systems like what's on your bass boat when you fish tournaments!:biggrin:) with controlled refrigerant in the form or dry ice should do the trick in our Federally funded biofuel car once the grant comes through.

Have we stimulated enough thought process into this fun thread?

Joe Congleton
09-20-2012, 11:59 AM
Sulphurs were in the clincH tailwater in the sixties when l first fished it." Old Darts "did try to nring montana stoneflies to the Little T in a cooler from the Madison in the sixties. Some petronarcus type big stoneflies were already here in little river in the park and are in the cumberland tailwater in ky naturally. Some mayflies were attempted to be moved from the Little T to the clinch by amateurs like me in the 70s. Unsuccessfully. Please do not try to bring any more itty bitty stuff to the clinch. Bring great big stuff. Truth is some fish in clinch can be caught on about anything short of tarpon flies if u stAnd there and drag it around on fine leaders long enough. Note i said some fish. Not all fish. Fwiw

waterwolf
09-20-2012, 12:04 PM
Waterwolf,
I hereby appoint you in charge of Norris lake BWO subset and I'll handle the S. Holston subset. I am formally applying for a Federal Grant to bring Tricos from Silver Creek back to the Clinch as well!

We will band their little legs much like ducks and do a viability study based on dissolved oxygen and how global/local warming from Oak Ridge has effected the Clinch. Corbo will be in charge of coliform counts effecting the lower Clinch, and yes, Cockeye Valdez will monitor cranefly predation on the BWO nymphs! Of course, Madison Boats will monitor lime deposits based on flow schedules as it degrades the into the water, thus effecting pH.

BTW, a miniturized oxygenator (battery powered O2 delivery systems like what's on your bass boat when you fish tournaments!:biggrin:) with controlled refrigerant in the form or dry ice should do the trick in our Federally funded biofuel car once the grant comes through.

Have we stimulated enough thought process into this fun thread?

I fished in a blanket Trico spinner fall on the Clinch above the lake last weekend. They are there, along with every conceivable caddis and a host of other Mayfly species.

If any of that stuff could survive below Norris, it would be there now, it isn't happening no matter what, short of removing Norris Dam.

fourx
09-20-2012, 03:38 PM
I'll bring some Hecubas back from The Big Wood and some tricos from the Big Lost and some callibeatis from Silver Creek when I come back from ID next week. I'll put them in a empty Fat Tire bottle.

I've seen October caddis come off en masse above the weir one day. No kidding. I don't think the trout knew what they were cause the adults weren't getting eaten. Go figure.

4X

Flat Fly n
09-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Now we're talking! Dry fly fishing 365!

I really want to plant some alders along the Clinch as well. Alder flies from Maine would make Corbo feel as if he is home again! Plus then some grouse might migrate down from the KY border and hang out in the thickets! Sorry Corbo, they are called grouse here, not Pats!

Flat Fly n
09-20-2012, 06:38 PM
I'll bring some Hecubas back from The Big Wood and some tricos from the Big Lost and some callibeatis from Silver Creek when I come back from ID next week. I'll put them in a empty Fat Tire bottle.

I've seen October caddis come off en masse above the weir one day. No kidding. I don't think the trout knew what they were cause the adults weren't getting eaten. Go figure.

4X

Hey 4x if you see my old net on the Big Wood please bring it home to me. Thanks...and have a great time! PS...it's in the no kill section.

mstone
09-20-2012, 11:21 PM
fourx,

Have a great time out there in Idaho. I fished all the waters you mentioned there a year ago to the week. I love the area there. Silver Creek kicked my a$$$ again. I've yet to fish the upper Big Lost in Copper basin. That's for next trip I guess.

MadisonBoats
09-21-2012, 07:33 AM
The Clinch above Norris has great blue wing hatches, and has the same geologic structure as the clinch

Maybe; I am not really sure about this aspect. The Clinch ecosystem from Coal Creek down is a different story. Once I get a more accurate measuring tool; I will try and detail some of my theories. If proven true or otherwise!:smile:

fourx
09-22-2012, 04:55 AM
fourx,

Have a great time out there in Idaho. I fished all the waters you mentioned there a year ago to the week. I love the area there. Silver Creek kicked my a$$$ again. I've yet to fish the upper Big Lost in Copper basin. That's for next trip I guess.

Next time Silver is fishing tough, go to the sloughs and fish as you would above the Clinch's weir. Turns sad into glad!
Or, pray for high winds and fish hoppers. Yum!

It's 4:55, can't sleep, and my flight leaves at 7:00. Sheesh.

4X