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Kevin_Thomas
02-09-2007, 06:51 PM
Lots of really good anglers talk about overlining their rods.

What are the Pros and Cons?

Kevin

tennswede
02-09-2007, 10:04 PM
It will slow your rod down Kevin. I overline all my rods and especially when fishing small streams. The heavier line will load quicker since you only use a very short length of line. I use DT on small streams for that purpose.

Check out the forum on federation of flyfishers website. http://www.fedflyfishers.org/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?board=CertifiedCastingInstructors;action= display;num=1113973662

RFowler
02-09-2007, 10:08 PM
Pros.. The ability to shoot more line. Overlining acts as a shooting head or sink-tip line. It can be very useful in the wind. Ex. I was fishing the surf in Florida a couple of summers ago and had a 10wt with a 12 weight tarpon line on it. It was very windy but this allowed me to get the fly out a good 80-100ft. Overlining can be effective in tight quarters as well. When you can't get out as much line because of cover. It won't take as much line out of the tip to load the rod. One other advantage is a heavier line will turn over very long leaders, easier.

Cons..not really any cons unless you're fishing water with spooky fish. Unless it's a 3wt with a 4wt line, or something similar. In other words, a heavier line will have more force when it hits the water.

Don't be afraid to try some crazy stuff out on the lawn or water.

Kevin_Thomas
02-09-2007, 11:36 PM
I'll give it a try! :)

ttas67
02-09-2007, 11:37 PM
rfowler, are you saying 4 on a 3 is ok, or not? would there be more advantage doing this while nymphing? disadvantage (spooking fish) with dries? I use DT on all my mountain rods. and have considered trying my 4wt dt line on my 3wt rod. I like the idea of being able to load the rod with less line. another question: I have a t&t helix 6wt, with wf floating line that I originally intended to use on the clinch. despite what I've heard about this being a great rod, I stopped fishing with it and decided I pretty much hate it. the rod is powerful and will cast long distances like a rocket, but even on the clinch I often find myself fishing within a relatively close range and this rod has no feel or load up close. would it be useful to try a 7wt line on this rod to slow it down a little? I've talked with some people who use a 6wt to nymph in the park. I'd like to try this rod sometime, but I'm pretty positive that setting the hook on an 8" smokies trout would send him out of the water and into the top of the nearest tree.

Kevin_Thomas
02-09-2007, 11:41 PM
From what I hear there are enough people fishing in the trees they could get your fish back!!!

tennswede
02-10-2007, 12:07 PM
I'm not Rusty but my experience has taught me to comfortably over line all my rods. One line weight up or down won't brake a rod. I wouldn't do more than one line weight to avoid stress on the rod.

A 4 wt isn't that much heavier than a 3 wt.

DryFly1
02-10-2007, 03:21 PM
I personally never overline or underline. *Here is an article that I had bookmarked and wanted to share it. *Full of crapola? *You decide....

Fly Fishing with Doug Mcnair- All about fly lines.

Donít overline! Overlining is a silly "phenomenon" that occurs when a fly fisher selects a heavier line - say a 7-weight floater - to use on a 6-weight rod. Dummies do that because some jackass said, "it will cast better." It wonít! While itís possible for a rod to be rated incorrectly, it is indeed rare. The notion of overlining is "crapola" propagated by either those (a) who cannot cast, (b) those who do not know much about fly fishing, or the cons who want you to think you are a "fly caster" within the first 5 minutes. I detest cons! The fact that he or she may sell fly fishing equipment means zilch in terms of creditability! There is a single exception to this statement -- itís "short-range" casting to targets under 30 feet. In this instance, itís true that a 7-weight floater will load a 6-weight rod to cast 30 feet or less. However, if you learn to tip cast, overlining for this specific situation becomes unnecessary.

If you happen to be a Doubting Thomas, consider this -- 30 feet of fly line weighing 140 grains outside the rod tip is a 5-weight line by definition in the AFTMA standards. Add another 5 feet to the length, and what do you have? The 35-feet of 5-weight line now weighs the equivalent of a 6-weight. The simple fact is adding 5 feet of line, in effect, adds one line weight. Said another way, aerializing 35 feet of 5-weight line on the backcast is the equivalent of lifting 30-feet of 6-weight line into the air! No question about it -- you need to understand the idiosyncrasies of line weights and how they can work for or against you. In the heavier weights - 8, 9 and 10 - I often recommend using a rod weighted one weight above the line weight to be fished. For now, perhaps this example will suffice: When I demonstrate "Long Casting," I use a 10-weight line on a "light" 12-weight rod called WindTamer. (The term WindTamer is mine having first published it in May, 1995.) And yes, you read it correctly -- the rod is two line weights heavier than the line; and no, I am not embellishing facts. As an old Druid, I speak truthspeak! More on this subject later.
Most rods will cast more than one line weight. Some might do it better than others, but normally you can count on at least two line weights for almost any rod, down but nor necessarily up. You might even find your 7-weight will cast a 3 or 4-weight line well enough to catch fish. This usually works best using a technique I call tip casting. True, you may not be able to perfectly emulate what can be done with a 3-weight system, but you will catch fish, have fun and save money, if thatís important.

He makes a good argument! *One opinion of course....

* Tip cast
Tip casting means you back off the power of the rod and utilize the rod's tip to perform the cast. This generally requires a very fast-action rod and compact casting stroke.

RFowler
02-10-2007, 04:57 PM
ttas67,

I'm saying its ok. A 4 on a 3 is less likely to spook fish than the 7 on the 6wt you're talking about. I think that 6wt would be better suited for smallmouth and streamers rather than low water on the Clinch.

DryFly1,

I beg to differ with that guys opinion. His first mistake is claiming that most rods are rated correctly, this is not true. Some are even rated 2 line sizes below what they really are. Like the Sage TCR. The 5 is more like a 7 or 8. There's a thread on on the southeastern board that explains a lot of this stuff.

And, according to this guy, my shooting head theory is not correct. I guess he never has to use them. Funny, Steve Rajeff does. I primarily use a heavier line to get extreme wind-cutting distance out of the rod. Or to turn over longer leaders. I'd like to see this guy turn over a 22ft leader with a 4wt and a 4wt WF line in the wind. I, personally, rig my rods up to suit the conditions. Not because of some manufactuer rating. Sometimes one has to do some of their own R&D. I underline, too.

As far as working up close on small water or because of a canopy. I usually dapple or use a slow rod. Like a bamboo.

RFowler
02-10-2007, 05:08 PM
I'm not Rusty but my experience has taught me to comfortably over line all my rods. One line weight up or down won't brake a rod. I wouldn't do more than one line weight to avoid stress on the rod.

A 4 wt isn't that much heavier than a 3 wt.

It's a relative thing, Hans. What kind of fishing do you do mostly? If an angler is mostly on small water then there's not much he/she needs to do to adapt. Big water changes everything. Fishing from a boat changes everything. I know, it's hard not to be general with a response without going into tireless details. But I just wanted to point out that its all relative to the conditions or situation.

Troutman
02-10-2007, 08:06 PM
I overline often also. My main reason is so I can use 1 line on several rods. = less purchases. I have a fast 3wt than I like to nymph with because it is 9ft long. I also have a couple of 4wts that I like for dries and as a backup rod for hike-in trips. I can use 1 reel with a DT 4wt line on all 3 rods. My son's rod is a 4wt but I put a DT 5wt line on the reel while he is learning to get the feel of the line in his false casting. The rod loads a little quicker and it has helped with short casting.

I try not to get too technical about it. If it does what I want it to do, I really don't care what the"experts" say!
I also agree with Rusty, Not all rods are really rated correctly. Some rods just seem to cast better with a heavier line than another with the same wt. rating.
I think this would be a good question for Lefty to give his opinion on. What do you think?

Gerry Romer
02-10-2007, 09:18 PM
Dry Fly 1 --

I have to agree with RFowler on this one. Your source's assumption would only be valid with a level line. And further, his arguments require that all lines in all weights and configurations could only be manufactured by one manufaturer.

Besides. When you're fishing a small mountain stream, with gin-clear water and "spooky" fish, you don't want to be false casting 30' of fly line over them. Ideally, you want to get about 20 to 25 feet out quickly with a minimum of false casts. Overlining can help you do this.

Now, if we were discussing casting contests, your guy might have an edge.

It really is a personal "feel" thing, and a lot of it has to do with the caster's personal physiology -- height, musculature, etc. *Truly... If it feels good, do it ;)

Gerry

DryFly1
02-11-2007, 12:55 AM
Hey guys,

I found the author's matter-of-fact attitude a little brass! Especially his lack of respect for other Fly Fishermans personal style and preference. We are well aware of what opinions are like! Just thought his in your face commentary was amusing. This is one of the things I love about Fly Fishing. All personal styles and preferences converge on one thing, the quest for a big fat trout. Well, maybe sometimes a small fiesty little Spec. Would love to hear what Lefty has to say. Who knows, he might just talk me into overlining? :)

Mark...

RFowler
02-11-2007, 05:50 AM
My quest is far less noble but I know what you mean, DryFly1.

tennswede
02-12-2007, 03:33 PM
Rusty!

I fish mostly small waters so overlining will help me in that regard. I have a couple of rods which are definitely better with a line weight above. It's just something I have learned by spending time on the water. I know my statement was an oversimplification but I do believe that one rod weight above is not going to hurt anything. I do agree though, that it is all relative. My suggestion is to try your rod with the line it is rated for. If you are doing fine there's no need to change, If you feel don't something doesn't feel right try a line class up and see what it does. I guess I'm saying do you own research and try it. I definitely wouldn't take any authority's advice for the final word. Nothing beats testing it out on the water.

billyspey
02-15-2007, 09:09 PM
google: common cents system. read the info here will help you understand about the real line weight of a given rod and all 5 wt. lines do not weigh the same, nor does all 5 wt. rods have the same action ,do whats works best for you and your style of casting. try it you might like what you find.

Gerry Romer
03-09-2007, 09:47 PM
I personally never overline or underline. *Here is an article that I had bookmarked and wanted to share it. *Full of crapola? *You decide....

Fly Fishing with Doug Mcnair- All about fly lines.

Donít overline! Overlining is a silly "phenomenon" that occurs when a fly fisher selects a heavier line - say a 7-weight floater - to use on a 6-weight rod. Dummies do that because some jackass said, "it will cast better." It wonít! While itís possible for a rod to be rated incorrectly, it is indeed rare. The notion of overlining is "crapola" propagated by either those (a) who cannot cast, (b) those who do not know much about fly fishing, or the cons who want you to think you are a "fly caster" within the first 5 minutes. I detest cons! The fact that he or she may sell fly fishing equipment means zilch in terms of creditability! There is a single exception to this statement -- itís "short-range" casting to targets under 30 feet. In this instance, itís true that a 7-weight floater will load a 6-weight rod to cast 30 feet or less. However, if you learn to tip cast, overlining for this specific situation becomes unnecessary.

If you happen to be a Doubting Thomas, consider this -- 30 feet of fly line weighing 140 grains outside the rod tip is a 5-weight line by definition in the AFTMA standards. Add another 5 feet to the length, and what do you have? The 35-feet of 5-weight line now weighs the equivalent of a 6-weight. The simple fact is adding 5 feet of line, in effect, adds one line weight. Said another way, aerializing 35 feet of 5-weight line on the backcast is the equivalent of lifting 30-feet of 6-weight line into the air! No question about it -- you need to understand the idiosyncrasies of line weights and how they can work for or against you. In the heavier weights - 8, 9 and 10 - I often recommend using a rod weighted one weight above the line weight to be fished. For now, perhaps this example will suffice: When I demonstrate "Long Casting," I use a 10-weight line on a "light" 12-weight rod called WindTamer. (The term WindTamer is mine having first published it in May, 1995.) And yes, you read it correctly -- the rod is two line weights heavier than the line; and no, I am not embellishing facts. As an old Druid, I speak truthspeak! More on this subject later.
Most rods will cast more than one line weight. Some might do it better than others, but normally you can count on at least two line weights for almost any rod, down but nor necessarily up. You might even find your 7-weight will cast a 3 or 4-weight line well enough to catch fish. This usually works best using a technique I call tip casting. True, you may not be able to perfectly emulate what can be done with a 3-weight system, but you will catch fish, have fun and save money, if thatís important.

He makes a good argument! *One opinion of course....

* Tip cast
Tip casting means you back off the power of the rod and utilize the rod's tip to perform the cast. This generally requires a very fast-action rod and compact casting stroke.

I had some problems with this guy's argument the first time around. I just came across an excellent article in the new Fly Rod and Reel magazine. While it doesn't specifically address the concept of overlining, it does address the "fuzzy math" that this guy uses. It's actually in the magazine's "Ask FR&R" section. There are two questions posed. The first deals with whether line weight casting characteristics vary from manufaturer to manufacturer. THe second deals with casting characteristics of WF lines vs. DT lines.

Here's a link for those who haven't seen the mag yet.

Gerry

http://www.flyrodreel.com/index.php/page/issues/sku/FRR2007_04/id/19242