View Full Version : ot: first bear sighting

03-30-2007, 09:43 PM
today was the first bear sighting for spring.............was across from maloney point....tourons had chased it up a tree and were surrounding the tree........ranger was trying to get the a**e* to leave the bear alone.....tourons are terrible with bear. everyone, please help............pass the word...leave the bears alone!

03-31-2007, 12:08 AM
I like that name. I have to admit I have been guilty of blowing my horn at tourons while driving back to Abrams before. They put pullouts about every 50 yards back there and still they stop right in the middle of the road and block traffic. Thats about the only time I ever use my horn! Not very neighborly, I know.

03-31-2007, 12:17 AM

04-01-2007, 01:02 PM
Aw man, did he have to be wearing a Cards shirt??


04-01-2007, 01:30 PM
I like that name. I have to admit I have been guilty of blowing my horn at tourons while driving back to Abrams before. They put pullouts about every 50 yards back there and still they stop right in the middle of the road and block traffic. Thats about the only time I ever use my horn! Not very neighborly, I know.

I do the same thing, John. ;) Some of those people don't know any better so I just try to edjumicate them. :)

04-02-2007, 07:55 AM
Tourons! I like that. I was fishing on a small stream off of the Blue Ridge Parkway a few weeks ago at a elavation of around 5000 ft. The area that I was fishing is always slap full of tourons. Once you get below a certain waterfall you do not see them much more at all. Obviously this stream is all specs. Well I am fishing the large hole below the waterfall and this yan(oops I mean northerner) comes up to me and asks me if I have caught any largemouths yet. Well at this point I just laughed to myself. I told him I was catching native brook trout. He then asked me how big they get and I told him they average between 4" to 8". He then asked me why they dont "farm" them in to this stream so they would be bigger. Once again I just laughed to myself, said have a good day and proceeded down stream.

04-02-2007, 09:15 AM
I see these guys blatantly ignoring rules....the litter, the bear business, and (forgive me) FISHING WITH A BOBBER AND WORMS IN THE PARK. It honestly makes me want to retire, lobby the senate to allow rangers to use deadly force, and then join the ranger service. Some days I see more bobbers and worms than fly rods....just plain laziness or disregard. I guess the rangers are too busy watching for violence in the campgrounds and diving accidents to worry about the fishing (no sarcasm intended...really).

Jack M.
04-02-2007, 10:50 AM
How far away from the park does one have to live to have the honor of being refered to as a "touron?" I would think that with a local economy dependent on the business of tourism, the locals would be more appreciative of the people who put food on their table year after year. If it weren't for these tourists that you lump together and insult, you'd still be walking about in your bare feet fishing with cotton thread tied to a hickory switch. See you in April.

04-02-2007, 11:20 AM
Jack M. I don't think area of residence has anything to do with being labeled a touron. It's the attitude and actions of the individuals when they are in the GMSNP or any national park. It's the careless attitudes of throwing trash in the streams, driving 55 in a plainly marked 25 zone and screaming at those walking the shoulders with their fly rods and yes, stopping on the side of the road to throw rocks in the stream while you are fishing. It happens in the Smokies, Yellowstone, Alaska and any where else that caters to an economy built on tourism.

04-02-2007, 11:25 AM
Jack M. I don't think area of residence has anything to do with being labeled a touron. It's the attitude and actions of the individuals when they are in the GMSNP or any national park. It's the careless attitudes of throwing trash in the streams, driving 55 in a plainly marked 25 zone and screaming at those walking the shoulders with their fly rods and yes, stopping on the side of the road to throw rocks in the stream while you are fishing. It happens in the Smokies, Yellowstone, Alaska and any where else that caters to an economy built on tourism.

Dont forget about them trying to get ten feet from a bull elk with females and calves close by. I guess getting a close up picture is worth having a six foot antler shoved through your chest.

Jack M.
04-02-2007, 11:25 AM
If location has nothing to do with it, it is OK to refer to local litterbugs and locals who are inconsiderate as "tourons?" If so, I'd like to get in on the insult frenzy as well.

04-02-2007, 11:35 AM
I agree Jack. I live in Asheville, NC and trust me I have seen plenty of these idiots that live right here.

04-02-2007, 12:15 PM
I agree in that be a touron is attitude toward others and the park. So many go the mountains for the quite, cool air and nature. It is sad that so many do not appreciate the opportunity. They should stick to the water parks where there behavior is more expected. On the good side the park has places to escape the congestion, disposable diapers and beer cans. It would be nice if they could show a little respect for others.


04-02-2007, 12:25 PM
If you have ever worked a trash cleanup day in the park, you will notice immediately that the amount of trash during the summer months is considerable more than the rest of the year. I am not defending the local trash hogs by any means but if the locals were the main contributors, the same amount of trash would be around 12 months a year and not 4-5. I have seen the same behavior in other areas. I was in PA a couple of Summers ago to fish the limestone creeks. Right above where I was fishing, a RV with out of state tags on it, pulled over to the shoulder and dumped three bags of trash on side of the road. The problem is not isolated to the Smokies and yes, the locals do contribute to the problem. The problem with tourists in the Smokies goes deeper than the trash. It's the rudeness towards others, including the cursing and insulting of local business employees and other visitors and the lack of attention to personal safety.

Jack M.
04-02-2007, 12:44 PM
I personally think you are rationalizing some subconscious animosity toward others that you are conveniently lumping into a group. There are hundreds times more visitors to the park once school lets out and that includes hundreds of times the number of "locals." Rather than categorize a group based upon their status as tourists, locals, yankees, foreigners, etc., why not just criticise the behavior you find objectionable and leave it at that?

04-02-2007, 01:09 PM
You are right, to single out "toruons" (which I did not do) would be letting ALOT of nc/tn locals off the hook. I just wish there was away to get people respect the place....the anger/anxiety comes from almost absolute knowledge I'm feeling at this point that the park isn't going to exist as a pristine reserve for my kids in 20 yrs unless we can all show some self disipline when visiting. Even beyond showing respect for the rules, look at all the development on the west side, the park is big but it isn't THAT big. I'm no hard core enviromentalist, but I wonder if I'm heading that way after seeing the changes in and around the park over the last 11 yrs.

My favorite example: Have you ever been around Cades Cove in the spring or summer? I just can't get over the dual thought that labels this place as one of the most beautiful, lush, wild life supporting places in the park and then runs 250 cars/trucks a day through it at 5 mph. I've decided it HAS to be a decoy to keep the other areas of the park cleaner. Where's the reservation system to visit it? Where is the electric rail or propane golf carts to go around the loop? How about bikes and walking only? I know...its not breaking the rules but it doesn't respect the place....the LEAST we can do at this point is follow the rules when visiting.....sorry about the ramble....its a tough balance.....visitors and locals welcome just take it easy. I bet cotton string on a hickory switch would work well if you used a greenie weenie.

04-02-2007, 01:10 PM
It is a sad thing indeed to see litter on the roadside or trailside in the park. The reality is people will continue to litter unless the penalties are severe. I believe people should be fined a minimum of $1000 for littering and up to $5000 for someone dumping large amounts of trash. Of course there has to be some judgement of the law enforcement involved say if someone accidently lets some paper fly from a moving car but the only way to stop littering is to have severe penalties because that is the only way some people will not do it.

04-02-2007, 01:17 PM
This is a very good debate and one that stirs up some emotions. I, too, believe that the penalty should be more severe for littering. I know that the rangers have lots of stuff to do, but i sure wish that they were more conscious of the "litterbugs." I know they probably are, but it just seems that litter is getting worse, not only in the smokies, but in just about every park or protected area. It's sad........


Jack M.
04-02-2007, 01:36 PM
There are litterbugs everywhere and I dare say that each of us, at one time in our life, carelessly discarded refuse without regard to the damage to the environment. Most of us have probably never taken trash bags out and thrown them over a hillside-- that's got to be learned from someone else. But those of us who have come to respect our wild resources have arrived at that attitude through some form of education, whether from parents or in school or through the media. How many remember the commercial years ago of the Native American (back then we just called them Indians) standing next to the road watching people litter and a tear runs down his face? That commercial made a big impression on a lot of people, including me. Where are the anti-littering commercials now? How many "reminders" do we get in and around the park to keep it clean? Perhaps we could all do a little more to educate our fellow man about being kind to the environment.

04-02-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm probably talking to myself at this point but WHAT IF you put a gate with a bar code at each entrance to the park, to get through the gate you have to either

1) visit a web site prior to your visit, review the park rules, and then print out a bar code that is good for 2-5 days


2) you pick up a copy of the park rules at the entrance and have to park your car, there is a 15 minute time delay before you can get into the park, but once you review the rules there is a bar code that is good for use 2-5 days


3) you are a "friend" of the park...every year you make a donation, review the rules and get a card that works all year


4) you have to travel thru the and into the park for business or to get to and from home....you get a card that works

one of the rules is if you break the rules, you get NAILED with a fine and removed from the park...and enforce it

04-02-2007, 01:52 PM
It's also fisherman that litter as well. I have pulled other people's tippet out of trees that were well within reach many times around here. If these fisheman would consider what this might do to a bird, racoon, or any other animal they would take a second and stuff it in their pocket. By the way, were are you from Jack? You seem a little bitter.

04-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Jack, the only way to educate people after they reach adulthood is to fine them heavily. Punishment will be the only way to stop 95% of your litterbugs. The only group who respond to education may be the fishermen ( or fisherpersons) of the world but that would be the 5% of the total mentioned above.

04-02-2007, 02:02 PM
Just for a bit of a different perspective...back in February, we were fishing Greenbriar. Before I got into the water, I saw a guy and his girlfriend, with local Tennessee plates, get out and start down to the stream - he had a nice bright orange Vols hat on. After I started fishing, this guy decides to play king of the mountain by climbing on the highest boulder and standing on it, spooking any fish within 100 yards. So, the roles in this case were reversed - I'm the out-of-towner, and the "local" was acting as the oblivious idiot.

Down here, I have to say it's the "natives" that cause most of the litter, or at least foster the culture of littering. We encourage tourists to come down here and do things that they can't do, say, in Peoria. So, they see the example we locals set - when we're done with our 64oz beer in the "go cup", just toss it down on the street. The success of a given Mardi Gras season used to be measured by the volume of trash collected after the last parade rolled. The attitude of "anything goes" extends far from the French Quarter; I've fished with people who thought nothing of tossing their sandwich wrappers, etc into the water. Many of the places where I launch my boat look like the front yard of "Sanford & Son", and that was before Katrina.

GSMNP is the most popular park in the system - therefore, it is always in danger of being "loved to death". One thing I don't understand is why no admission fee is charged to enter the park on the main entrances; SNP in Virginia charges to access Skyline Drive - perhaps they can do that because it is a roadway that is totally within the park, versus a highway that traverses through it (like U.S. 441). Anyway, if admission could be charged per vehicle, the ranger at the gate could hand them a map and a garbage bag. The only other way I can see to get people's attention is to make the littering fines so steep that it would discourage such activity - of course, a ranger would have to catch someone in the act, which is tough.

Jack M.
04-02-2007, 02:40 PM
By the way, were are you from Jack? You seem a little bitter.

I'm from Pennsylvania and I'm not bitter in the least. I'm just insulted by the way some people stereotype "others," then blame the world's woes on them. I have had this discussion before. This time, I listened to the "tourons" insults and the piling on for a few days before I decided to make my umbrage known. Just like with littering, harassing wildlife and mishandling fish, education can be the key to eliminating the error of stereotyping.

04-02-2007, 03:06 PM
What happened to the bear sightings?

We all know about the litter bugs. The only way to fix it is to hire more rangers and give them a bull horn, a camera, and a sniper rifle. If they see someone litter, they shoot their tires out with the rifle, take pictures of them to show everyone, and then follow them with a bull horn shouting "Look everybody, I caught some litter bugs" then fine them $1,000 for each ounce of trash that was thrown out.

If that don't work then they should just shoot anyone on sight that litters no matter where they're from, women, children, pets, grandmothers, indians, mexicans, chines, blacks, whites, americans, iraqi, iranians, uzbeckistanians and fishermen included. That way no one is sterotyped or profiled.

Now, show me some more bear photos!

Rog 1
04-02-2007, 03:52 PM
In regards to question about charging an entrance fee to the Park I believe that when the park was created the enabling legislation specifically provided that this was going to be a public park for the people and that as such no admission fees would be allowed. Since it is federal land any fines from littering would probably end up in the general fund and not find its way to any immediate benefit for the good of the park. Think the whole thing about littering goes back to one's upbringing and being taught what is important in the world.

04-02-2007, 04:00 PM
This whole thing is obviously a sensitive issue. And I do not apply the term "tourons" to every one. I would like to meet you out there some time Jack M. I have met some very nice fellow fly fishers from all over the country while on the streams. And I am not native to the region my self by no means. But the pressure on the park is become a real issue and summer is coming. Perhaps there is a way to get the park officials to focus more effort on certain issues and areas. I guess the issues are how can we help. For instance I prefer not to have cell phone service in the mountains but sometimes I wish I could grab my phone and call the parks service and report some of the offending people.

Snipers and anger do not represent a solution.

04-02-2007, 04:11 PM
actually the reason for no fee is on the parks webpages. and as i used the term touron in the context of chasing a bear up a tree and then standing below it so that it has had it's behavior disturbed, i will continue to use it in that context. we, at the park, would like a fee and there is move afoot to get a fee (which will reduce the vandalism, littering, plant robbing, and animal behavior disturbance). the best instance of what can happen when the touron chases the bear happened last year.....then bear pooped and pee'd all over them (a memory those "visitors" will never forget.)

04-02-2007, 04:18 PM
And I agree a fee would be appropriate for today’s conditions and if one is put in place all founds should be specifically for the park to address the issues.
And the tourons that got defecated on had it coming.

Jack M.
04-02-2007, 04:24 PM
“Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.”

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

04-02-2007, 04:28 PM
I hope that the park does not ever get to charge an entrance fee. The government all ready gets enough of our money (and wastes a fair share of it). I know that this money might be ear marked specifically for GSMNP, but I would bet my right arm that only a small percentage would be returned to the park. I also realize that the fee might be small, but who is going to guarantee that it would not also "gradually" increase? I feel that it is just a slippery slope that is better to not start down. I do not buy into the argument, that people who pay this fee will be less likely to commit park violations (i.e. littering).

This is just my two cents!

04-02-2007, 04:35 PM
this Yankee touron was in the Park this past Sat and Sun.. Between lodging, food, gas and the stuff the wife in Gat and I bought at LRO I left about $1k for the locals. While fishing up past the Tremont Center along the gravel road twice huge pickups with TN tags went by at a very high rate of speed and left a choking cloud of dust! Then one of the two on his return trip pulled next to my car and stopped just sitting there.. until I started up the road to inquire why they were so interested in my car at which time gravel flew and away they went!

As to the bobber fishing there are a lots of folks that have absolutely no idea any other way of fishing exist. I'm sure 30 years ago when we took the kids and camped at Elkmont we "touron" probabaly used Snoopy poles and bobbers!

Now that I can says been there and dome that it's back MI and PA for weekend trips and west for the 2 weeker in the summer.

04-02-2007, 04:49 PM
well, another way to support the park and make sure the money stays here is to join the Great Smoky Mountain Association...which is the cooperative association of the park....$25 for individual, $50 for supporting member (couple), $500 for lifetime. all funds benefit the park. you can join on-line or at any park store. tell'em sam sent ya

04-02-2007, 05:04 PM
Hmmm...that's some interesting history concerning the lack of an entrance fee; given that, it would probably be very difficult politically to ever impose an entrance fee. Don't get me wrong - I am definitely not an advocate of the Federal Gov't getting any more of our hard-earned dollars - much of it is indeed wasted. However, as someone who uses the park quite often, I wouldn't mind paying a fee, if the proceeds were dedicated to the park only, and not put in the Treasury's general pool of money. My main reason for possibly having a fee would be to cut down on the sort of people who would tear into the park as an excuse to drink beer, etc. Also, by forcing people to stop and pay, there would at least be a chance to educate some people on proper use of the park. No, it wouldn't be a cure-all, but it might help, at least a little bit. However, it's a moot point - it won't be happening anytime soon.

04-02-2007, 06:40 PM
Bullwinkle, I personally did not mean that all tourists should be labeled a "touron". If people visit the park, tread lightly and leave it like they found it or better yet, take a bag of trash out with them, that does not make them a touron nor a lidiot (local idiot). My inference was that people visiting anywhere should make themselves aware of the rules (no littering, no live baits, etc) when visiting anywhere, not just the Smokies. We are given a short time on this earth to be the stewards for the future generations and what we do now to protect the ecosystem ensures that our grandchildren will be able to enjoy the same surroundings. I would not think of traveling to fish the Mad River and while there, take the liberty of dumping my trash on banks or urinating in the same place I was fishing. Unfortunately, I have came across both situations while fishing in the Smokies.

04-02-2007, 09:55 PM
Lets leave the bears alone--I don't much like bears-it is their park as much as it is ours--they have become identified with the park--the park and the bears are have become synonomous--the 13 million tourons,the park and the bears are synonomous----there's more bears in the park then ever---if the tourons feed the bears---if they tree the bears---if they want to get close to bears,like the bears are distant uncles or aunts--then someone will get attacked--it is just a matter of time---it is touron behavior---when there is a human life,lost---maybe a son or daughter---everyone will be so sorry--I don't like bears--they are canine,they smell like a dog--they attack like a dog--its like being attached by a 400 pound doberman--but--they own the Smokies as much as the feds do--as much as we do---so keep it up tourons---you are getting ready to learn a lesson you won't live long enough to ever forget.....thanks larry auxier

04-02-2007, 10:38 PM
The two best solutions for these problems are;

1. to get the GSMNP more money for employees and maintenance. That requires money. The park does need a fee to help these problems. Legally that is a huge issue, especially with the living relatives of those families who gave the land. Many of the families still gather once a year in Cades Cove for a reunion. A lot of things would change if a fee was charged. What specifics would change? No one can say for sure at this point.

2. Educate people on the do's and don'ts of the park. Trash is one thing. Eliminating litterbugs is going to take eliminating the human race. Just look at your local roads and you'll see litter directly underneath the sign that says "littering fine maximum $500". It goes where people go. The fishing problem is that most people just don't know the rules. I'd wager a pretty good amount of money on the fact that people fishing with bobber's and worms don't have a clue that you have to have a license, stamp, and what the limits are. The wildlife problem is that people are again uneducated on how to deal with them when they see them.

The big question on #2 is how do you impliment a system that will educate people enough so that they will know how to act when they are in the park? It is the mindset of the people that has to change. Part of that would be an admission fee. For instance, take the kid who was given a Corvette on his/her 16th birthday vs. one who had to work hard to buy a Corvette for himself /herself and see who respects the car more. There are exceptions to every rule, but the majority falls into that category I just mentioned. The mental paradigm shift would take years if not decades to change even with a system that educates people. We, the caring people posting here, are the parks biggest asset in changing this by approaching people in the proper manner as to educate them not insult them. Granted if you do this you'll get more middle fingers than positive attitudes, but it starts with the education of your family and friends.

04-03-2007, 11:57 AM
I am a member of the gsma and have been for years. All of the profit goes straight to the park. I stop in the vistor center last month and talked to one of the menn working the bookstore and he mentioned that the park realy needs help this year because of large bugget cuts. I wouldn't mind paying an entrance fee but from what I have read it will not ever happen. So I joined GSMA and like Sam said its $25 a year for an indivdual. I am personal doing the 4year plan ($125 a year) life time membership. I also try to spend between $75-100 each trip at the bookstore. Its not much but its more than an entrance fee. I also have the Friends of the GRSM plate on my wifes Durango. This is a differant group but the money still goes to the park.

04-03-2007, 02:59 PM
Most people who live in or near a tourism-driven economy have sort of a love/hate relationship with tourists. In Central Florida, where our one-legged-stool of an economy is shakily supported by 40 million visitors a year, the most common gripe is that it can take an hour or two sometimes to go 10 miles on roads that 35 years of tourist dollars just have not been able to improve.

Still, our attractions here are mostly contained in a contrived, manmade tourist setting. Not too many folks get in trouble, because no one is really too far outside their own "natural setting." The really sad thing is that when people visit a pristine place like GSMNP or other national park, these beautiful places are so far removed from their personal experience that they simply don't know how to act when they get there. That's how trouble starts, and unfortunately the natural resources suffer as a result.

Paula Begley
04-03-2007, 05:32 PM
This afternoon, I got a call from a customer, Jim from Indiana. While Jim is not a member of this message board, he reads it often. He has been reading this thread and asked that I post this message with the following link:


This is a story on a paddling forum that talks about trash on the stream...and why we should pick it up. Trash that is left by *tourons* and trash that is left by anglers.

It is a good reminder that there is all kinds of trash left on the stream...and all of it needs to be picked up.


04-03-2007, 07:09 PM
An absolute stop to the littering and other abuses won't come with stiffer fines or harsher punishment. It will only come when people go back to raising their kids to respect other people, nature and the value of having some sort of moral compass to live by.

When we start raisin' our kids right again....things will get better, instead of worse.

In other words( however ), don't hold your breath, and fines are at least somethin'....*sigh...

04-03-2007, 09:18 PM
when i had the position of cfo/part owner in major ford-mazda dealership in lexington, we had a saying which was used to get the attention of sales persons that stretched the truth...."hit'em in the wallet". the same has proven to be successful in the park...get caught, get fined.

Paula Begley
04-03-2007, 09:20 PM
An absolute stop to the littering and other abuses won't come with stiffer fines or harsher punishment. It will only come when people go back to raising their kids to respect other people, nature and the value of having some sort of moral compass to live by.

When we start raisin' our kids right again....things will get better, instead of worse.

Amen, brother!

I say that, not having been blessed with children. However, it is incumbent on all of us to be stewards of the kids and of the streams and of the parks and of the world. The very best way to live is by example. Pick up the trash...let someone see you doing it. Set an example...and someone else will see that it is important to do so.


04-03-2007, 09:25 PM
i do more hiking and photography than fishing, and i always have a bag to tote out the trash. i have a lot of friends that do trail maintenance in the park as volunteers and they always come out loaded with "stuff". anyone who is in the area and has extra time can become a VIP (volunteer in park) and do many many tasks which are soooo beneficial and easy.

04-03-2007, 09:43 PM
Many years ago I went hiking in Red River Gorge, in Kentucky, with a couple in their late 50's. She hiked in a long skirt with big pockets. In each pocket she had a small trash bag which she filled with the things visitors had left behind. Mostly food wrappers and drink bottles/cans. She never said a word about what she was doing, just picked the stuff up.

Finally I asked her husband what was she doing? He explained in a very negative way that made it clear he thought she was nuts to pick up trash. I'll never forget her because she picked up the stuff.... and him, because he didn't.

Paula Begley
04-03-2007, 09:43 PM
Well, as greater than me have said...

(I have warned you all before that I am a quotaholic!)

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Lao-tzu

Let us become the change we see in this world. Gandhi



04-03-2007, 11:30 PM
The last few years during the Carnival season, a crew has been going along the parade routes, handing out trash bags. The city of New Orleans has hired a new waste management company who is keeping the French Quarter relatively clean - for years, the joke among locals was that you had to have a special pair of shoes, some that you weren't afraid of trashing, to walk in the Quarter. The point is - there is hope, because, for all its charms, New Orleans has never been noted for being particularly clean.

When I come up in a few weeks, I'll bring along some trash bags. In the meantime, it's a bit disconcerting, but not surprising, to hear about all the fishing violations (bait, etc). It's the same story everywhere - there are just too few game wardens to cover too much territory.

04-04-2007, 01:27 PM
As a kid, some 40 years ago, I remember reading about Thor Heyerdahl's raft trip across first the Atlantic and then the Pacific. He talked about reaching a place in the Pacific that is the is the point farthest from land on the planet. What did Thor see - a Coke can floating by.

The attitude seems to be more and more that "I am the only human on the face of the Earth." It certainly feels that way on the roads. I think it's a lack of evolution.

04-10-2007, 09:15 PM
i saw a bear yesterday...on little river, on the far side...not far from the indians nose....he had a square face, a lot like a horses face....brown muzzle, and otherwise black.... saw him....he saw me...GONE! i had no chance for a pic...but keep an eye out....he is just different looking!

04-11-2007, 11:13 AM
Listen Folks,
My major gripe with Tourists is when they stop in Cades Cove and block the road.....with pullouts set every 50 yards minimum. As for the trash, I think the natives do more of that than the tourists. I had an idiot 3 weeks ago nearly hit me with a malt beverage bottle (Bicardi, not beer). I picked it up with the intention of sitting it on his hood if I saw his car. Thought better of it when I got a look at the thugs (4 of them) in the car when I did see it in Townsend, with Blount county tags. We really should start reporting these people.