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Crockett 08-21-2010 01:42 PM

JoeFreds New Maps and Stream Species
So I recently bought one of JoeFred's maps and first of all I got to say these maps are incredible. One of the best things I have purchased related to fishing in the park. I have spent a lot of time pouring over these maps arm chair fishing and planning future blue line trips. However, when doing this I noticed one glaring thing. I noticed the map showed rainbows going way up sams creek then turning to specks but not till the very headwaters. I sent Fred an email about this and he thought I might post something about it here so that others with the same question might get an answer. Basically the reason was that he used the fisheries map and it hasn't been updated since the brook trout restoration. Fred if you read this maybe you can elaborate more on that.

JoeFred 08-21-2010 02:19 PM

Adam, thanks. I'm glad you like the map. My greatest regret with the Little River map was not going ahead and showing Sams Creek as it is now and not as shown on the map given to me earlier on by the Fisheries Management people. At the time I thought I was doing the right thing being 100 per cent consistent wth their map anticipating it would be updated soon. I knew about the success of the restoration and that you, for one, had caught brooks all the way done to the barrier.

Later when I showed the finished map to Matt Kulp (a super nice gentleman) at HQs, he and others were complimentary of my efforts but disappointed I had not shown Sams as strictly brook water. It was only then that I learned that they had had to end the data-yielding sampling recently due to funds being cut. Apparently they weren't even able to do a final map update before sunsetting the initiative. You could tell they were all disappointed that this particular research had to end.. including the younger biologists who have the desire and... stamina to rock hop "back of beyond."


Jim Casada 08-21-2010 04:37 PM

Adam (and Fred)--The maps are a great resource and one every truly serious fisherman owes it to himself to acquire. That being said, inevitably there will be questioanble areas.
Your coverage of the Deep Creek drainage shows a good bit of upper Indian Creek in blue (don't know what that means since it isn't in the fish legend) and then two sections of specks and bows along with a couple of feeders with only specks. I realize that the distribution is based on Park surveys, but I'd love to know both the methodology and the time frame for those surveys. I've never seen a speck in Indian Creek or any of its feeders, but of course that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Did Matt Kulp tell you, or do you know how the Park came up with its distribution map? I've talked to him but just accepted in as gospel without asking. As I begin to look though, mostly at areas with which I have a great deal of familiarity, questions come to mind. Are these the result of actual stream shocking? If so, do they have data on when each stream was shocked? How did they determine exactly where a species began?
I don't think you'll find all three species of trout in the two little creeks coming in from the west just below McCracken Branch and Nicks Nest campsites, respectively. I assume these are Hammer branch and Bridge Creek, respectively, although they aren't marked by name on the map. I've fished both and don't think there are specks in either. Mighty low elevation, among other things.
ONe thing for sure, just checking all of this fascinates me, and there is one source who quite possibly has for actual, hands-on, dead-certain information than the Park (especially since this project has ceased). That's Bobby Kilby. He's fished hundreds of Park streams and carefully documented the species he caught. I don't know whether he'd be willing to share, since he's understandably protective of hard-won data, but I can put you in touch if you'd like.
Meanwhile, see if you can get some hard answers on precisely how the Park arrived at their distribution map, and I very much hope others will chip in on this. collectively there's got to be a world of first-hand knowledge among forum members. One other thought--give some consideration to altering your color scheme a bit. I know nothing about the printing aspect of this, but to me the all trout, brook trout, and no trout colors are a bit too close to the same. How about some harsher but clear colors--dark purple, bright orange, and dark blue (although again you've got a lot of Indian Creek in blue)?
Whatever else, don't take this in a discouraging way. Quite the opposite--give us more as time and budget allow. In the latter context, the more of you who purchase the maps (LRO has them), I suspect the more Fred will produce.
Jim Casada

JoeFred 08-21-2010 05:11 PM


Originally Posted by Jim Casada (Post 84790)
...Fred...Your coverage of the Deep Creek drainage shows a good bit of upper Indian Creek in blue (don't know what that means since it isn't in the fish legend) ...Jim Casada

Jim, it is especially unclear on the Little River map, but somewhat less so on the Deep (see snip it), Forney and three others just out in Little Pigeon drainage, as to what streams in blue mean, but the notes next to the fish images speak to this.

The streams that I did not highlight, meaning left blue, are those that had not been researched by the Fisheries at the time I was given their data. I took the cue from their map to use blue. I'll be certain to make the meaning more obvious in future updates. I will also try some other colors as you suggest. Presently I am forced to use brighter hues to stand out against the base topo maps, the color saturation of which I have little over control, in order for the original contours and labeling (streams, cemetaries and the like) to remain dark enough.

Re. your never seeing a speck in Indian Creek or any of its feeders, I intended to show rainbows (pink) only and did so based on my reading in light of so little of it being researched by NPS. I now see I showed, by mistake, an IC feeder (Georges Branch) with both rainbows and specks (red). Soon I may do a map just for Indian Creek, but would need yours and others' input on species.

Unfortunately time has not permitted me to get to speak with Matt about the important questions you raise.

2/15 Update: Deleted map image previously posted.


Jim Casada 08-21-2010 06:23 PM

Fred--I'm pretty sure Indian Creek is about as easy as it gets. The entire drainage that holds fish will be only rainbows except for the 150 yards or so below Indian Creek Falls (very close to the confluence with Deep Creek), which would be browns and bows. The falls present a barrier no brown could climb, and unless someone starts some bucket biology, which unlikely since this is frequented by so many hikers throughout the year, that translates to nothing but rainbows.
Keep plugging away, and I hope you have the North Shore streams lined up. If you do all of them together on a single map don't leave out Pilkey and Chambers creeks. Both hold trout.
Jim Casada

JoeFred 08-21-2010 09:34 PM

Jim, I'm finishing Porters Creek now. Then at your and Joe Street's (Rivers Edge Outfitters) suggestion, North Shore streams are next: Hazel, Eagle, Pilkey and Chambers creeks. Should be interesting developing ... no Fisheries data other than for Ekaneetlee Creek and feeders.


JoeFred 08-22-2010 08:47 AM

Improved species legend
Jim, I believe this change will help explain the blue. Updates of the other maps will have a similar legend. Thanks again for pointing out. JF

MadisonBoats 08-22-2010 09:00 AM

JoeFred - Killer Maps
JoeFred's Maps are Top-Notch! I had the pleasure of chatting over email and meeting him at Troutfest. I believe he has tried to address everything a map user could want and then; create it for fly-fishermen.

Good job and wonderful maps! I always try and send people to your website when then need a good map.:smile:

Jim Casada 08-22-2010 09:27 AM

Fred--That's fair better to my eyes, but you don't have a color for brown trout (although you have browns pictured).
Jim Casada

Crockett 08-22-2010 12:23 PM

I think I understand Fred that blue means no data available for that stream/branch or section correct?

I would be interested in a map including Chambers Creek since I just re-read that chapter in Jim's book last night and the thought of being able to fish most of the entire stream in one day was enticing. Especially one that is so hard to reach and gets relatively little attention or mention in most places.

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