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Old 01-11-2011, 05:47 AM
Corbo Corbo is offline
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Default Poison in park waters

Boy am I confused after reading EVERY POST on the "killing rainbows" thread!

As a recent "transplant" from Maine who is very familiar with BONAFIED Native "genetically pure" brook trout restoration I think that POISONING waters to "restore" tyhem on behalf of brook trout (that would need to be stocked) is TOTALLY ABSURD.

IF THE INTENDED DESIRE IS INDEED RESTORING A SPECIFIC FISH TO IT'S NATIVE WATERS WITHOUT COMPETITION FROM "INTRODUCED NON-NATIVES" I BELEIVE THE ENTIRE EFFORT IS FOOLISH.

Maine was blessed when large scale genetic testing of brook trout revealed that many brook trout waters had never been polluted with hatchery fish or transplanted fish. There are more than 100 up-country ponds that have genetically "pure" fish.

What is most interesting may surprise you all.... fish from different waters... sometimes only a few hundred yards apart had different genetics! The ice age essentially stranded fish into different waters and over time each water had GENETICALLY DISTINCT attributes. (coloration, growth potential, longevity etc. etc.)

Several years ago Paul Guernsey and me visted a bunch of "genetically pure brookie ponds" that had been aquired by the App. Mtn. Club; the article in FF& reel told the story about how all the ponds in this reserve were " genetically pure unto themselves" and after fishing the ponds we could see the differences in the fish.

The brookies definitely varied in physical appearance from one PURE POND to the next and all were like sparkling jewels with no fish over 10 inches caught through the week.

Maine has "reclaimed" many ponds over the years; at first they would rotenone and then stock with hatchery brookies. Later they grew a brain and started to re-habitate to some extent with brookies that came from sources where no stocking had ever influenced original genetics.

I don't know the extent that National TU, the Little River Chapter or any of the Federal experts from the Dept of Interior or Commerce have "studied & tested" the genetics of the Park brookies.... I would bet that brookies from different basins would show that they are genetically different.

I applaud all of your for your tremendous efforts to restore brook trout habitat in the park as well as efforts to restore the "range" of the brookies without competition from non-natives BUT ask you all, "what is a non-native"?

In our world of science & technology it has become commonplace to accept the notion that JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING MEANS YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING.

IMO it is far better to protect something from destruction than destroying everything in order to re-establish something of dubious integrity.

Killing rainbows, browns and every other living thing in small mountain streams in a speculative (pun) endeavor to increase brook trout range without regard to the genetics of each individual stream is poor science.

It would be far more noble to protect genetically pure native brookies in the park where they have not been disturbed by non-native or non-genetically distinct brookies by closing these waters to fishing or creeling.

"Restoration" with chemicals is totally irresponsible.... with all critters in the stream affected you are messing with more than the fish.... you might be killing genetically distinct species from bugs to salamanders to whatever and I find the entire notion selfish.

You may now beat me with a stick... but you've already killed the genetically distinct brookies you wanted to protect.

Last edited by Corbo; 01-11-2011 at 06:23 AM..
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Old 01-11-2011, 12:28 PM
mcfly mcfly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post

As a recent "transplant" from Maine who is very familiar with BONAFIED Native "genetically pure" brook trout restoration

What is most interesting may surprise you all.... fish from different waters... sometimes only a few hundred yards apart had different genetics!

Maine has "reclaimed" many ponds over the years; at first they would rotenone and then stock with hatchery brookies. Later they grew a brain and started to re-habitate to some extent with brookies that came from sources where no stocking had ever influenced original genetics.

I don't know the extent that National TU, the Little River Chapter or any of the Federal experts from the Dept of Interior or Commerce have "studied & tested" the genetics of the Park brookies.... I would bet that brookies from different basins would show that they are genetically different.

Killing rainbows, browns and every other living thing in small mountain streams

It would be far more noble to protect genetically pure native brookies in the park where they have not been disturbed by non-native or non-genetically distinct brookies by closing these waters to fishing or creeling.

"Restoration" with chemicals is totally irresponsible.... with all critters in the stream affected you are messing with more than the fish.... you might be killing genetically distinct species from bugs to salamanders to whatever and I find the entire notion selfish.

but you've already killed the genetically distinct brookies you wanted to protect.
2 Suggestions:

1) The comments above show some ignorance. Do more research.
2) Do all of your fishing in Maine.
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Old 01-11-2011, 01:46 PM
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Grannyknot Grannyknot is offline
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You seem like a pretty intelligent person to me, so I would suggest some reading on Allopatric vs. Sympatric speciation and how they pertain to Northern strains (plural) vs. the southern strain.
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Old 01-11-2011, 02:00 PM
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jeffnles1 jeffnles1 is offline
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While I seriously doubt the long term success of many of these measures and to think a lot of other things were indeed killed that make a stream such an interesting eco system, I've not been made award of significance of genetic differences in the southern strain of brookies that live in park waters. There well may be genetic differences from stream to stream, but that hasn't been discussed.

If the poision killed off all the fish, I'm assuming it killed off crayfish, salamanders, aquatic incets and other native fish that lived in the stream and it wasn't selective to just rainbow and brown trout.

The biggest concern I had over the entire thing is killing off everything in the stream.

However, I do believe the fisheries biologists know a whole lot more about it than I do. I wouldn't expect them to tell me a lot about implementing computer systems in a Fortune 500 company and I wouldn't want to be telling them how to do their jobs.

Jeff
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Old 01-11-2011, 02:12 PM
pineman19 pineman19 is offline
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Jeff,

Not sure about genetic differences, but they have noticed some differences in the different watersheds of the Park. That's why they used specs from the Upper Little River watershed to stock Sam's Creek. I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that they used fish from Sam's Creek to stock Lynn Camp. I would say the the specs in Sam's Creek look different than the specs I have caught in the Greenbriar system.

Neal
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:19 PM
Knothead Knothead is offline
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There are slight genetic differences in the Appalachian strain of brook trout. Differences are detected in different watersheds in the southeast. I guess we could call them sub-species. As to poisoning, I watched Kentucky wildlife officers put rotenone in a small farm pond owned by a friend. It was overrun with very small bluegill. The fish came to the top and were netted. One was a huge crappie, the only one in the pond. I don't recall seeing any other kinds of aquatic life being affected. After a certain time period (don't recall what), the pond was restocked.
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Old 01-11-2011, 05:29 PM
Corbo Corbo is offline
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Has anyone ACTUALLY compared the genetics of brookies from the Upper Greenbriar with the Upper Little or perhaps the creeks that feed Abrams? Or do you assume that each watershed has similar genetics because it is convenient or expedient.

"Conserve, protect and restore" are in this order for a reason. Restoring something that wasn't conserved is not possible.

They might all be stockers anyway?

Personally I think brook trout are very pretty but I prefer to fish for browns; mostly in tailwaters... boulder strewn mountain creeks with a lot of over hanging trees & moochie brook trout are for younger guys that have the legs to get there safely.
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Old 01-11-2011, 06:17 PM
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GrouseMan77 GrouseMan77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post

"Restoration" with chemicals is totally irresponsible.... with all critters in the stream affected you are messing with more than the fish.... you might be killing genetically distinct species from bugs to salamanders to whatever and I find the entire notion selfish.

You may now beat me with a stick... but you've already killed the genetically distinct brookies you wanted to protect.
This article contains information on the chemical (antimycin) that was used to treat the waters: http://www.newmexicotu.org/Antimycin%20Summary.pdf. I did not take the time to highlight specific information in the article.

By the way, the treated streams were shocked and fish were collected prior to the streams being treated. So very few of the brookies were killed. I'm sure that either Steve Moore or Matt Kulp (GSMNP fisheries) would be glad to answer any further questions that you might have. I can dig around for their email addresses or telephone numbers if you'd like.
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Last edited by GrouseMan77; 01-11-2011 at 06:58 PM.. Reason: Additional Info
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Old 01-11-2011, 10:05 PM
2weightfavorite 2weightfavorite is offline
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the topic will always be a sore one to bring up... Wasting money to kill fish to bring in different fish... I used to love to fish that stream, now Ill have to wait who knows how long to fish it again. but mark my words, when I do get to fish it again I would bet my bottom dollar that I stilll catch a few bows...
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