TWRA wrong about...

[mstone]

I have to agree with Waterwolf on TWRA. After hunting waterfowl in east and middle Tennessee for the last thirty five years, it's fairly obvious that they don't put forth much of an effort. Seems most of our money goes to finance new vehicles while there are major issues with what habitat is left for fish and game.

[GrouseMan77]

Originally Posted by mstone

I have to agree with Waterwolf on TWRA. After hunting waterfowl in east and middle Tennessee for the last thirty five years, it's fairly obvious that they don't put forth much of an effort. Seems most of our money goes to finance new vehicles while there are major issues with what habitat is left for fish and game.

As a grouse hunter who is not into the "big game" stuff I agree 100%. Very little is actually done. If you feel different please give examples.

[Bfish]

Originally Posted by waterwolf

The Clinch has remarkable growth rates, according to every single growth study every done on the river our fish grow about 2" per month, making this fish the exact size of a fish which hatched last spring or summer, given the slower growth rates which will always be present during the first few months.

Using your 2'/month growth rate, a 4" fish would have been hatched in Nov/Dec and 6" fish would have been hatched in Oct/Nov. Time for egg development to swim-up is 30-45 days. Actually growth is quite rapid the first few months, and then it slows down.

I believe your growth rate is based on you mis-interpreting this Table (table 1 on page 7) that Habera likes to use:

http://www.tn.gov/twra/fish/StreamRi...08%20final.pdf

Which states years to reach 15 inches, as 1.9 years. However one must apply the footnote (b) which says when stocked as a 5-inch fish. 1.9 years plus 1 year equal 2.9 years old. Works out to be a month growth rate of around 0.4 inches/month, not 2 inches/month that you stated.

Fingerling stockings in the Clinch are done usually late May or early June, they are done this late to prevent possible loss due to abnormally high flows from heavy spring rains and spillage from the dams. This is common sense, and common knowledge.

Yes that is the preferred timing of stocking of fingerlings. In the past, Eagle Bend stocks when fingerlings get to 2" regardless of preferred timing, as lack of hatchery space dictates immediate release.

According to TWRA who I contacted yesterday the only fish stocked this year so far have been "catchable" sized fish, those average roughly 9" and anyone who has caught them knows the obvious difference between those and the picture above.

As I mentioned in my previous post, if the stockers came from Dale Hollow, especially early in the year, they tend to run undersize. Often by a lot. Anything that doesn't squirm through a crowding gate of a certain size bar spacing (say 1.5 inches) is magically a catchable (ie 9"). While it certainly true in September and August that the bar spacing has an average size of 9 inches, it does not hold true early in the season. Lots of smaller fish are always stocked early in the year (exception being hold-overs that have been fed all winter at the hatchery).

Naturally you don't see anything that makes you think that fish was river born, they don't wear name tags which state such, and they certainly don't sport clipped fins like many hatchery released fingerlings do in the Clinch.

About the only time trout are fin-clipped is when they are targeted for a study. You are correct, I don't see anything that identifies the fish as river born. A 2011 naturally spawned fish would be larger, IMO. Not all hatchery trout have eroded fins, especially in the smaller sizes (less crowding in the raceways now, due to all fish being smaller).

You also must not fish the Clinch too much or not be very observant when on the river. Fish have spawned for decades up the tributaries, and the redds from this year can still be seen all over the river. Those 2" fry which can be found by the thousands each fall certainly would disprove your uneducated opinion as well.

I suggest you read (or re-read) Bettoli, P. W., and L. A. Bohm. 1997. Clinch River trout investigations and creel survey. Fisheries Report No. 97-39. Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, Nashville, Tennessee. As it documents the tributary spawning, not only that but it also documents the insignificant impact it has on the population. Yup that is right, 15 years ago. FYI, just because their are redds doesn't mean the trout spawn. Just because you see trout attempting to spawn, doesn't mean they were successful in fertilization, just because you see eggs doesn't mean they will hatch, just because you see fry doesn't mean they will survive to fingerling. It takes several million eggs for a single natural spawn fish to grow to a catchable size. With annual stocking rate of over 800 trout/surface acre of water, I sort of doubt the three C creeks, even if every single egg survived to catchable size, would significantly (ie 5%) affect the population.

...I do hate TWRA, and anyone who has hunted/fished in this state for more then a year or two would more than likely agree there management on most fronts is horrific.

While by no means are they perfect, but compared to other states (include several bordering states) in my experience, they do a fair job. Plenty of room for improvement, but not horrible either.

[waterwolf]

Originally Posted by Bfish

I suggest you read (or re-read) Bettoli, P. W., and L. A. Bohm. 1997. Clinch River trout investigations and creel survey. Fisheries Report No. 97-39. Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency, Nashville, Tennessee.

End of my participation in this topic, anyone who would actually use this study as being some sort of bible is not even remotely able to understand one iota of anything related to the Clinch. Sorry, but that is by far the worst scientific study ever done on the Clinch. It is so bad it is embarrassing that our license dollars actually went to help fund it.

That is the rag which directly cited that fishing pressure had no impact on the fishery. Enough said.

Enjoy your spring/summer fishing Bfish, you and I see the world entirely different if you think the aforementioned nightmare is valid science.

[Jon]

TWRA is a good organization. Of course I would like to see the Clinch, The SOHO, The Watauga, The Caney Fork, The Elk, and the Holston managed much better. The regualtions that are on the Caney should be on all of these tailwaters in my opinion.

[Paula Begley]

There won't be any need to place bets and I've deleted the posts which were saying that, or egging on a fight; I've edited others to remove language of that nature.

This isn't going to turn into an argument. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, right? It's perfectly fine to debate TWRA findings and reports, so please feel free to carry on with that, if you wish.

Intentionally provoking another member is against the site rules, please keep them in mind.

Thanks,

Paula

[jrose]

Hey, not to stir the pot, but I wonder if some of the information from this story in yesterday's Knoxville News Sentinel might shed some light on the debate: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/ap...hreat-of-cuts/.
Especially, note the second paragraph and the photos.
But no matter the source of the fingerlings, it can't be a bad sign that adult rainbows are constructing redds in the Clinch.

Jack

[waterwolf]

Originally Posted by jrose

Hey, not to stir the pot, but I wonder if some of the information from this story in yesterday's Knoxville News Sentinel might shed some light on the debate: http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2012/ap...hreat-of-cuts/.
Especially, note the second paragraph and the photos.
But no matter the source of the fingerlings, it can't be a bad sign that adult rainbows are constructing redds in the Clinch.

Jack

They do stock fingerlings this time of year every year, and it is a welcome stocking for us as fisherman for the future, and the bigger browns who gorge themselves. However, note the picture I posted is well before they stocked fingerlings this year and note how different the picture I posted looks from the stockers.

[MadisonBoats]

Originally Posted by troutmanbrook

I was able to take off work a little early yesterday. I wanted to go to the church, but decided not to wade. I pulled into miller's parking lot about 4:30, and there was a stock truck pulling out. I looked in the water, and in the boat ramp pool I saw about 300 trout. I should be ashamed about harassing these guys, but some were of significant size! I was using a dry dropper and caught 2 fish at once twice within thirty minutes. I would say within an hour I caught at least 30-50 of these guys

Danny,
Those stockers are pitiful. One thing I hate to see is the fish mongers crowding around the ramp pulling fish after fish out of the water. I heard one guy bragging last year that he had caught 80 fish and had to take them home and get another cooler. I hope TWRA keeps an eye out on these areas for a month or so....

As for TWRA's stance on reproduction; I have chatted with many of the agents about this topic and it is my opinion that they do believe rainbow reproduce on the Clinch; however, it does not occur well enough to maintain the depletion rate. Also; if they endorse the idea that rainbow trout reproduce effectively on the Clinch; then, it is hard to justify the funds to continue stocking it.

I do think it could be stocked with a better method and practices. Also; the '97 TWRA Report and the more recent assessments of the Clinch are very generalized in my opinion. I think they could be more accurate if they had the funds and time to assess the river more often. Also; I think it would be a good idea to include a fisherman's report from surveys on the river. It all comes down to funds and resource allocation. I hope they get more of it and are not impacted by any more cuts.

Most of the employees I know want to make the fisheries better and are active in improving and promoting better fish management.

Just my opinion.

[Corbo]

Well Gang.

You may not realize how good you got it here in East TN.... when it comes to trout densities per river mile.

I moved here from Maine two years ago; a place most folks figure is LOADED with salmonids, char and trout. Nothing could be farther from the truth when it comes to rivers or sections of rivers where stocked fish are the only game in town. The famed Kennebec has naturally producing landlocks, rainbows and some brook trout in the upper river close to Moosehead lake but the middle sections rely totally on stocking and areas of several miles and as long as 15 miles might ONLY receive a totally of 3500 stocked fish! Hernce catch & release.... not enough to keep a fish and "fish killers" are likely to have flat tires or busted windsheild.

Despite the low numbers of stocked trout (mostly browns) the fish grew fat and healthy, the would make redds at the Shawmut tailwater but it's doubtful that adequate "rearing habitat" existing for juvenile fish born in the river.

The "good news" is that stocking so few fish it was entirely possible to FIN CLIP them so anglers and biologist could determine what year class a fish was when caught. The adipose was the "b" fin and the right & left "E & F".

Many of us kept fishing diaries for many years (these were printed in booklet form by the biologists) wherein we recorded the clip, date and length as well as time of day and location on the river. Fish from above the shawmut dam were not clipped so it was possible to determine tailwater contribution fish from up-river.

The Shawmut tailwater despite only receiving a few thousand fish per year was considered one of the best tailwaters on the east coast for 15 years and regularly produced enormous brown trout until about 6 years ago when the fishery totally collapsed for unexplained reasons... they still stock it but there are few hold-over fish now. some believe that years of heavy scvouring decreased the bug life that supported the trout diet.

Anyway; a few weeks back I was fortunate to float and fish the Clinch with Shawn and ****ation are there a lot of trout in the Clinch! I wish I lived close to it as I would go about every day. (Funny Greenbriar flows out my backyard and I don't fish it).

So while it would be nice if trout did indeed successfully reproduce in the Clinch and whether you like or agree with TWRA staff or studies or opinion you ought t6o count your blessings for having such an awesome river to enjoy that's totally full of easy to catch rainbows.

Just my DOLLAR & TWO CENTS.