Home Register Today's Posts Members User CP Calendar FAQ

Go Back   Little River Outfitters Forum > Fly Fishing Board > Tennessee Trout Streams and Tailwaters

View Poll Results: Largest Conservation Issue for The Clinch River?
Run-off (Silt, Sedimentation, pH imbalances of Water, Etc.) 3 20.00%
Invasive Specie Threat (Striper, Etc.) 5 33.33%
Low Dissolved Oxygen Levels (TVA-low cfs rates, Climate, Natural Riparian Limitations) 2 13.33%
Fisheries Management (Stocking, Education, Enforcment, Fiscal Capabilities) 11 73.33%
Land Development (Sewage, Treated Water, Rainwater Runoff, Code Enforcment) 1 6.67%
The Clinch River is fine; there are not threats to its health! 0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 15. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 08-22-2012, 06:54 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadisonBoats View Post
Again; my intent with starting this topic was not inflammatory. I desire to solicit the opinions and thoughts of fellow fishermen/women on how to make the Clinch River a better ecosystem. Everyone has an opinion and it should be heard. However; I hope that our ideas can voiced as constructive and not condescending.

I am actually a bit surprised to see fisheries mgmt. as being the biggest threat/concern to the Clinch River's Conservation.
It has been and will continue to be until TWRA understands how valuable a resource the Clinch is to this state and their interests.

The Clinch could be so much better than it is now, and anyone who remembers the QZ era will understand what I mean.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-23-2012, 10:22 AM
Joe Congleton Joe Congleton is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 69
Default

Having been in the business of giving advice for many years i can tell you that most folks have a hard time taking it, even when they pay you to give it . Free advice is even less respected ...but here goes anyway---

Here are some facts . Not opinions but facts . I have flyfished on the Clinch about 45 years. In the late sixties when i joined Trout Unlimited there were less than twenty members in Tennessee. I helped to organize the first TU chapter in this end of the state ,the GSM chapter, and there were less than 20 TU members east of Chattanooga. I was the first true organizational president of the GSM chapter and it grew to over a hundred members in two years . We looked for projects in the Park Tellico and on the tailwaters. We rolled rocks planted trees and tried to make meaningful ties with TWRA and TVA USFS and the FWS. We got the GSMNP to stop all hatchery fish stocking in the PArk. In short the organization was a working conservation entity and also a fishing club of sorts. This GSM chapter and the then newly formed Chattanooga chapter formed the TU council for Tenn early on. Subsequently a chapter in tri cities emerged (bluff city) and began to work on the south holston TU was the primary leader in the Tellico Dam fight. Hundreds of TU members from all over country gave a lot of money to fund that fight. TU national offcie worked the Washington DC governmental entities and we darn near won the battle over the Tellico dam. (A new book is scheduled to be out soon that will detail all this Tellico work --it will be titled "Little Fish", out next year i think).

Anyway, as the Tellico fight was ongoing other talwater issues came to the forefront. InFollowing the release of the Study for Alternatives to the Tellico Dam some of the TVA directors came to realize the potential economic gain from enhanced tailwater fisheries. Plus, legal issues surrounding point source designation under the Clean Water Act prodded TVA to correct water edficiiencies. By personal meetings with the TVA board memebers TU was at the forefront of getting the tailwater water issues in dissolved oxygen, minimum flows ) addressed meaningfully for the first time. The weir dams came about directly and absolutely in response to this work and potential environmental litigation over the past water quality releases. As the Weir dam construction and designs improved the fisheries improved dramtically. TU at work.
Now to some opinions: Having served as State Chairman and a National Director of TU qnd based on the matters mentioned in the preceeding paragraph, i can tell you firsthand that the organization does and can make a difference . But making a difference doesnt mean in all instances being a litigant or a complete adversary to the governmental groups who oversee the resources. That role often is last resort. In my youinger days, I was like several of you who obviously care about the resources. I srongly urge that you attend some TU meetings and voice your concerns there or contact the TU leadership on the state and get involved rhere.

Lone Rangers dont usually win a lot of these regulatory or conservation fights or solve the bigger issues. An organization that is already in place with working relationships with the governmental agencies is the place to start: your local TU chapter. You will have a postive impact with your participation. Self declared experts on the internet may think they are the drum major but if they look around and no band is following them they might want to go find the band first, join it, and then use it for a forum to begin a plan to solve their concerns. TU is pursuing all the real issues in the poll in some fashion or another, depending on the matters in focus. I attended the annual TU Tva TWRA joint taliwater review session in july. with About 25 TU leaders. Folks attended From several different Tenn chapters. Every concern about the Clinch was addressed . Some fairly serious and vigorous discussions addressed potential solutions. Not a lot of *** kissing took place. While TWRA biologists say analytically that the Clinch is the current most productive tailwater in Tenn , it is my impression that most anglers who fish it regularly are frustrated that the fishery is nowhere what it could be with some tweaking. because we see the POTENTIAL for it to be great, day to day and year to year--just as i saw ot forty plus years ago and Waterwolf sees it today. Everybody there at the meeting, governmental or volunteer wanted the Clinch and other tailwaters to improve but there are obvious limitations that hinder progress in some areas. Fixing some issues is not an overnight project. Tilting at windmills such as "acid drainage" is not beneficial to the debates (i do not believe there is or ever has been a acid mine drainage source designation by the Dept of Interior or water quality enforcement agencies in the Tennessee Clinch watershed) While enthusiasm is a great asset it is important to get facts straight in order to have credibility with resource managers, which at the end of the day hold the trump cards in matters of water and fish management.

I Suggest anyone who wants these water to improve needs to find the TU chapter near you or near "your" water and get involved. Dynamic young ideas are welcome.

Last edited by Joe Congleton; 08-23-2012 at 03:53 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-23-2012, 11:07 AM
cockeye valdez cockeye valdez is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 112
Default As my dear Mom would say,

"Whell" after a borderline contentious disagreement between me and my siblings. The idea of discussing improvements to the Clinch is a large idea and I thank Shawn for placing it on the table. I sponsor a fly fishing club at a local school. We have 12 members, we talk about conservation as well as casting, tying, and entomology. I plan to take them to the Clinch next month.
These kids and others like them are the future of the sport we love. Their involvement will determine the future of our sport.
We need, for our kids, to have this discussion on a civil level. Shawn, you put it on the table and perhaps we should pursue it. You can be the drum major, I'll be in the band.
I'm a member of Clinch River T.U. they're great guys. Glad they let me in.
c.v.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-23-2012, 04:10 PM
Byron Begley Byron Begley is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Townsend, Tennessee
Posts: 1,366
Default

I have been a member, leader and supporter of Trout Unlimited for 30+ years, not as long as Joe has but still for a long time. I started as a member and director of the Cumberland Chapter in Nashville. After moving to Townsend over 20 years ago I transferred my membership to the Great Smoky Mountains Chapter and attended meetings in Knoxville. Then with the encouragement of the Tennessee Council and the Great Smoky Mountains Chapter I started working on a new Chapter in 1992 to assist Great Smoky Mountains National Park. We chartered in 1993, I served as the first President and we called ourselves the Little River Chapter. Soon after, the Clinch River Chapter was formed.

Anyone in the fisheries department at Great Smoky Mountains will tell you, the relationship that began 20 years ago has benefited the Park by $2.5 million. That includes volunteer labor from several TU Chapters, FFF, the Tennessee Council of TU, grants and donated cash. Before 1992, the Park Fisheries Department did not work with outside organizations. The Little River Chapter and Great Smoky Mountains Chapter changed that.

Due to the efforts and partnership with Trout Unlimited and the Park, most of the closed brook trout streams are now open to fishing. Most streams above natural barriers have been restored to pure strains of Southern Appalachian Brook Trout.

A few years ago I attended a Tennessee Wildlife Commission Meeting in Gatlinburg. An important issue to me was a slot limit on the Clinch River. I knew that idea had the overwhelming support of Trout Unlimited. I also knew TWRA supported this management practice. I sat next to Frank Fiss, who is the Assistant Chief of Fisheries at TWRA. I knew Frank wanted the slot limit. There were several TU members present to support the slot limit. When it came time for the public to speak, I spoke out in favor of the slot limit. Joe Congleton and George Lane spoke in favor of the slot. There were two people there who were opposed and they said they represented a landowner group on the Clinch. The Commission voted in favor of the slot limit which remains in place today.

What I am getting to is this, get involved with Trout Unlimited, either the Clinch River Chapter or the Great Smoky Mountains Chapter. Work with the agencies, TVA and TWRA. Support them. Tell them about the river cleanups the Clinch River Chapter does every year. Tell them about the bank stabilization efforts. Talk about the work John Thurman has done. Talk about getting young people involved to become our future stewards. Discuss water flow. Look at dissolved oxygen problems, water temperature, didymo, lack of food, abundance of predators, pollution and enforcement. Learn how to work with them, not against them. Make collective decisions on what can be done to improve the fishery. Raise money to help them do their job better.

My experience is, that is the only way you can improve fishing in the Clinch River. Maybe the fishing is fine. Maybe there isn’t a problem. I don’t know. I suspect all of the issues Shawn listed in this poll are important. Don’t dwell on the past. Look to the future. Sacrifice your time and money to be a better steward and make a difference. Start by getting involved with Trout Unlimited.

Just my 2 cents and ho.

Byron
__________________
Byron@LittleRiverOutfitters.com
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-29-2012, 07:18 AM
MadisonBoats's Avatar
MadisonBoats MadisonBoats is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norris, TN
Posts: 1,888
Default Article:Collaborative Conservation: Leopold's Land Citizenship in Coal Creek

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Congleton View Post
Having been in the business of giving advice for many years i can tell you that most folks have a hard time taking it, even when they pay you to give it . Free advice is even less respected ...but here goes anyway---

Here are some facts . Not opinions but facts . I have flyfished on the Clinch about 45 years. In the late sixties when i joined Trout Unlimited there were less than twenty members in Tennessee. I helped to organize the first TU chapter in this end of the state ,the GSM chapter, and there were less than 20 TU members east of Chattanooga. I was the first true organizational president of the GSM chapter and it grew to over a hundred members in two years . We looked for projects in the Park Tellico and on the tailwaters. We rolled rocks planted trees and tried to make meaningful ties with TWRA and TVA USFS and the FWS. We got the GSMNP to stop all hatchery fish stocking in the PArk. In short the organization was a working conservation entity and also a fishing club of sorts. This GSM chapter and the then newly formed Chattanooga chapter formed the TU council for Tenn early on. Subsequently a chapter in tri cities emerged (bluff city) and began to work on the south holston TU was the primary leader in the Tellico Dam fight. Hundreds of TU members from all over country gave a lot of money to fund that fight. TU national offcie worked the Washington DC governmental entities and we darn near won the battle over the Tellico dam. (A new book is scheduled to be out soon that will detail all this Tellico work --it will be titled "Little Fish", out next year i think).


Anyway, as the Tellico fight was ongoing other talwater issues came to the forefront. InFollowing the release of the Study for Alternatives to the Tellico Dam some of the TVA directors came to realize the potential economic gain from enhanced tailwater fisheries. Plus, legal issues surrounding point source designation under the Clean Water Act prodded TVA to correct water edficiiencies. By personal meetings with the TVA board memebers TU was at the forefront of getting the tailwater water issues in dissolved oxygen, minimum flows ) addressed meaningfully for the first time. The weir dams came about directly and absolutely in response to this work and potential environmental litigation over the past water quality releases. As the Weir dam construction and designs improved the fisheries improved dramtically. TU at work.

Now to some opinions: Having served as State Chairman and a National Director of TU qnd based on the matters mentioned in the preceeding paragraph, i can tell you firsthand that the organization does and can make a difference . But making a difference doesnt mean in all instances being a litigant or a complete adversary to the governmental groups who oversee the resources. That role often is last resort. In my youinger days, I was like several of you who obviously care about the resources. I srongly urge that you attend some TU meetings and voice your concerns there or contact the TU leadership on the state and get involved rhere.

Lone Rangers dont usually win a lot of these regulatory or conservation fights or solve the bigger issues. An organization that is already in place with working relationships with the governmental agencies is the place to start: your local TU chapter. You will have a postive impact with your participation. Self declared experts on the internet may think they are the drum major but if they look around and no band is following them they might want to go find the band first, join it, and then use it for a forum to begin a plan to solve their concerns. TU is pursuing all the real issues in the poll in some fashion or another, depending on the matters in focus. I attended the annual TU Tva TWRA joint taliwater review session in july. with About 25 TU leaders. Folks attended From several different Tenn chapters. Every concern about the Clinch was addressed . Some fairly serious and vigorous discussions addressed potential solutions. Not a lot of *** kissing took place. While TWRA biologists say analytically that the Clinch is the current most productive tailwater in Tenn , it is my impression that most anglers who fish it regularly are frustrated that the fishery is nowhere what it could be with some tweaking. because we see the POTENTIAL for it to be great, day to day and year to year--just as i saw ot forty plus years ago and Waterwolf sees it today. Everybody there at the meeting, governmental or volunteer wanted the Clinch and other tailwaters to improve but there are obvious limitations that hinder progress in some areas. Fixing some issues is not an overnight project. Tilting at windmills such as "acid drainage" is not beneficial to the debates (i do not believe there is or ever has been a acid mine drainage source designation by the Dept of Interior or water quality enforcement agencies in the Tennessee Clinch watershed) While enthusiasm is a great asset it is important to get facts straight in order to have credibility with resource managers, which at the end of the day hold the trump cards in matters of water and fish management.


I Suggest anyone who wants these water to improve needs to find the TU chapter near you or near "your" water and get involved. Dynamic young ideas are welcome.
Very good information Joe! I appreciate you taking the time to elaborate and give your opinion! One thing to consider; just because something has not been flagged before as an issue does not mean it is not a problem. As I wrote earlier; I am not trying to point any fingers. I would like to work together and openly discuss ideas and issues we feel could hinder the Clinch River. I am from Lake City and have many years of playing in Coal Creek. I truly think there are some pollutant issues in this creek and I would like to work at reducing them. I know some conservationists have already tackled this issue and made great strides. I appreciate the work that Barry Thacker, CCWF, TU, and many others have done to improve the coal creek watershed.

Here is a link to a fabulous article and excellent read that offers some great insight on previous conservation efforts in Coal Creek!

Corresponding Article:

Collaborative Conservation: Leopold's Land Citizenship in Coal Creek By: Samuel Snyder
Link:http://www.humansandnature.org/colla...-article-6.php
__________________
“Every human has four endowments- self awareness, conscience, independent will, & creative imagination.
These give us the ultimate human freedom... The
power
to choose, to respond, to change.”



Last edited by MadisonBoats; 09-01-2012 at 06:43 AM.. Reason: Spelling...
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-29-2012, 08:28 AM
Varmitcounty's Avatar
Varmitcounty Varmitcounty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 92
Default

Are you a member of the Clinch river TU chapter Shawn? Seems to me that getting your chapter members on the same page with a game plan might be the best place to start.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 08-30-2012, 03:58 PM
Corbo Corbo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sevierville TN
Posts: 494
Default

Good question VarmitCounty; but shouldn't you ask it of everyone?

Perhaps there ought to be a "CLINCH COALITION"?

This might unite all the various stake holders. In Maine we formed the Kennebec Coalition to bring all the NGO stake holders together in an effort to remove the Edwards Dam.... a tough fight to restore a river but WE won!

Working together clearly works better than working alone; success comes with numbers of folks with a common dream and lots of resolve.

Government, Industry, TVA and others can be moved by a large group of concerned citizens.... a single person gets blown off but a constituency makes you powerful and difficult to ignore. You also need money; sometimes a lot of it. Most of all you need to have a group that leads by example because it demonstrates you care about the resource.

If you are hoping TU National will do something for you then you are fooling yourself... you must have a local grass roots effort before they will jump into your fight and even then their willingness or ability to help out may be limited by their own financial resources or other factors.

I seriously doubt there is enough resolve from enough people that any improvements to the Clinch River will happen any time soon; sad..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 08-30-2012, 10:24 PM
Varmitcounty's Avatar
Varmitcounty Varmitcounty is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 92
Default

Grass roots efforts are the start. TU will get involved to offer support, but they won't come in and just start fixing things. I know several of the national staff of TU and can say that if the effort locally is strong enough, and the TU chapter is directly involved in more than just a name affiliation, they will offer help.

And as Corbo mentioned...If you are not a TU member...why not?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-01-2012, 04:01 AM
Corbo Corbo is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sevierville TN
Posts: 494
Default

Thank you Joe & Byron!

My chapter (kennebec) in Maine has been enormously successful over the years, two Golden Trout Awards for what they're worth.... but I won't bother you all with the "list" of monumental achievements.

Unfortunately my chapter did not have a banquet this year..... my guess is lack of participation from the younger guys; a great many of us 50 + guys have old. cold bones and have moved south.

For twenty five years or so the Kennebec Chapter has been largely comprised of "The Greatest Generation" & "the Boomers"; we are getting old, tired and BURNED OUT. I believe this is the case everywhere even though many chapters have sought to "recruit" members by teaching younger kids to fly fish which has been a BIG thing up in Maine.



I started in my 20's and I'm 53; when I joined up I was considered a kid in the group but I jumped in head first and sorta became the Chapter "lawyer" when it came to hydro issues and FERC RE-LICENSING... I needed a lot of money and was fortunate that the older guys believed in the mission and worked their tails off to raise the money and the awareness in our Community.

I was part of a great grass-roots effort that achieved great results but I fear those born after the Boomers largely expect WE will live forever and continue the battle.... Personally I got burned out in 2000 for the most part; too many years spent researching documents, typing documents, filing documents and long lonely nights etc. Fortunate I met my wife AFTER "retiring"; I certainly didn't have time for a wife while I was battling for the Kennebec River's future.

So JOE... I got a piece of WOOD for you; Byron can explain.

You young fellows must understand that it is NOW your turn to step up to the plate... the old guys who won what you enjoy deserve to have their effort honored with YOUR effort.

Ain't nothin free. SO... OFF MY FREAKING SOAP BOX AND LEAVING TO MEET A YOUNG GUY BELOW NORRIS TO FISH THIS MORNING BEFORE THE FLOOD AT 10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-01-2012, 06:47 AM
MadisonBoats's Avatar
MadisonBoats MadisonBoats is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Norris, TN
Posts: 1,888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post
Thank you Joe & Byron!

My chapter (kennebec) in Maine has been enormously successful over the years, two Golden Trout Awards for what they're worth.... but I won't bother you all with the "list" of monumental achievements.


Unfortunately my chapter did not have a banquet this year..... my guess is lack of participation from the younger guys; a great many of us 50 + guys have old. cold bones and have moved south.


For twenty five years or so the Kennebec Chapter has been largely comprised of "The Greatest Generation" & "the Boomers"; we are getting old, tired and BURNED OUT. I believe this is the case everywhere even though many chapters have sought to "recruit" members by teaching younger kids to fly fish which has been a BIG thing up in Maine.




I started in my 20's and I'm 53; when I joined up I was considered a kid in the group but I jumped in head first and sorta became the Chapter "lawyer" when it came to hydro issues and FERC RE-LICENSING... I needed a lot of money and was fortunate that the older guys believed in the mission and worked their tails off to raise the money and the awareness in our Community.


I was part of a great grass-roots effort that achieved great results but I fear those born after the Boomers largely expect WE will live forever and continue the battle.... Personally I got burned out in 2000 for the most part; too many years spent researching documents, typing documents, filing documents and long lonely nights etc. Fortunate I met my wife AFTER "retiring"; I certainly didn't have time for a wife while I was battling for the Kennebec River's future.


So JOE... I got a piece of WOOD for you; Byron can explain.


You young fellows must understand that it is NOW your turn to step up to the plate... the old guys who won what you enjoy deserve to have their effort honored with YOUR effort.


Ain't nothin free. SO... OFF MY FREAKING SOAP BOX AND LEAVING TO MEET A YOUNG GUY BELOW NORRIS TO FISH THIS MORNING BEFORE THE FLOOD AT 10 AM.
I hope to get more involved and to start carrying the load for a while. I am grateful to so many who have paved the way.
__________________
“Every human has four endowments- self awareness, conscience, independent will, & creative imagination.
These give us the ultimate human freedom... The
power
to choose, to respond, to change.”


Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:31 PM.



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.