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  #31  
Old 09-19-2012, 10:16 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Flat Fly n View Post
Is it all those cigarette butts floating down the river that gives indications that spawning is going on?
AS discussed here over the years at length there is thousands upon thousands of young of the year rainbows in the system right now. If the river wasn't red mud, it would be simple to go get a net full in most areas near the bank.

I am not referring to fingerling stocked size fish, but 2" long fish which came from naturally reproducing rainbows, since all fingerling stocks are larger and have been done months ago.

This has been going on for eons, and during the mid-late 90's I worked 3 nights a week with TVA biologists to help increase the success rates of fish spawning in the river during January and February. During that time period we surveyed hundreds of redds, and also collected thousands of eggs and sperm which we used to fertilize and ultimately raise around 700,000 fish annually. AT some point TWRA and Eagle bend fish hatchery took over the project and it lasted another year or two, then it was abandoned.

To the non-believers I pose a serious question. Anyone who has fished the river during peak rainbow spawning periods has certainly seen all the redds up and down the river. If you haven't than maybe a little eduction is needed in identifying redds or new sunglasses are required. The question which I want answered by the nay sayers, is that why these fish can't be successful?

I say it is impossible for them to NOT be successful, based on the simple fact that trout naturally reproduce in much harsher conditions, with much worse spawning grounds.

So make your case, and stop with the inane attempts to be funny. Man up and make your case.
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  #32  
Old 09-20-2012, 11:27 AM
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OK, no more cig jokes.........

Personally I think it is the generation schedules on the Clinch that hurts.
S. Holston has much less inflow and therefore less outflow as the Clinch. It's not uncommon for a one hour pulse on the S. Holston to maintain minimal flow and DO. It is however UNCOMMON on the Clich for anything less than 8 or more hours of 6-7K CFS flow, everyday, secondary to the massive amount of drainage areas the two rivers behind Norris control, especially in a normal to wet season. My two cents on why reproduction/spawing to adult natives is sparse at best.

Serious enough?
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  #33  
Old 09-20-2012, 12:01 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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OK, no more cig jokes.........

Personally I think it is the generation schedules on the Clinch that hurts.
S. Holston has much less inflow and therefore less outflow as the Clinch. It's not uncommon for a one hour pulse on the S. Holston to maintain minimal flow and DO. It is however UNCOMMON on the Clich for anything less than 8 or more hours of 6-7K CFS flow, everyday, secondary to the massive amount of drainage areas the two rivers behind Norris control, especially in a normal to wet season. My two cents on why reproduction/spawing to adult natives is sparse at best.

Serious enough?
Okay, then explain how naturally sustaining populations of rainbows/browns occur in free flowing rivers that suffer much greater flow fluctuations than the Clinch ever could?

How does little river support a wild population? During the rainbow spawn the flows on that river are generally high.

In addition, areas where most of the redds will be found, will be areas of deeper gravel, these areas are not subjected to the heavy flows that the remainder of the river is, hence the presence of a smaller substrate which would easily be scoured during high flows if it were in an area where current flows were heavy.

Come on Phil, give it another shot This is a trick question BTW.
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  #34  
Old 09-20-2012, 07:04 PM
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Waterwolf,
I personally don't care, and whatever I or anyone else says on this board it is wrong in your educated mind! Remind me again of your college degree or degrees....., fisheries biology, microbiology, wildlife biology, because I am surely impressed with it. I don't claim to know or want to know all the answers regarding why there are no spawning or true native adult fish on the Clinch. Why don't you just tag the fish you think are native, and study them. Do DNA checks on them for all I care. Heck I just work in heart surgery for a living, I don't know all the fishing answers and I just want to think I have a shot at a few big fish when I go to a tailwater in TN, and I look at this board for some entertainment from time to time to escape and unwind.
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  #35  
Old 09-20-2012, 08:06 PM
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Waterwolf,
I personally don't care, and whatever I or anyone else says on this board it is wrong in your educated mind! Remind me again of your college degree or degrees....., fisheries biology, microbiology, wildlife biology, because I am surely impressed with it. I don't claim to know or want to know all the answers regarding why there are no spawning or true native adult fish on the Clinch. Why don't you just tag the fish you think are native, and study them. Do DNA checks on them for all I care. Heck I just work in heart surgery for a living, I don't know all the fishing answers and I just want to think I have a shot at a few big fish when I go to a tailwater in TN, and I look at this board for some entertainment from time to time to escape and unwind.
This is what happens every time, the argument against natural reproduction comes up. TWRA follows the exact same talk track. I remember watching Buxbaum almost bring Frank Fiss to tears by posing the same points I did, and Frank's answers were the exact same as yours. And always result in a personal attack or two rather than a good counter argument.

I seriously doubt that my Marketing degree from UT qualifies me for anything other than selling medical devices. However, I have always tried to be extremely observant on the river, and try to understand this stuff from a logical rather than an emotional point of view.

That is why I asked the questions to you, so I can understand your point of view.

It is easy to suspect that the flows on the Clinch have an impact, however when I step back and think about where fish spawn, and other rivers where they successfully do so, I can't make the flow argument add up to no success.

No one seems to have an answer to the tons of fry/fingerlings in the river right now. Logic to me adds 2+2 and the only reasonable explanation is successful spawning. I think we all can agree they don't fall into the river by way of raindrops.

The best hope for the Clinch and taking the management by TWRA to a whole new level, one which we fly fisherman would love, is to prove that the fish are spawning successfully.

My question is why go with personal attacks? I can play that game even better if you wish to take that approach, but I would rather discuss this stuff using logical reasoning to maybe get closer to an answer. And if my points are absurd than please elaborate, I always try and comprehend even though it may not sink in
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  #36  
Old 09-21-2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterwolf View Post
This is what happens every time, the argument against natural reproduction comes up. TWRA follows the exact same talk track. I remember watching Buxbaum almost bring Frank Fiss to tears by posing the same points I did, and Frank's answers were the exact same as yours. And always result in a personal attack or two rather than a good counter argument.

I seriously doubt that my Marketing degree from UT qualifies me for anything other than selling medical devices. However, I have always tried to be extremely observant on the river, and try to understand this stuff from a logical rather than an emotional point of view.


That is why I asked the questions to you, so I can understand your point of view.


It is easy to suspect that the flows on the Clinch have an impact, however when I step back and think about where fish spawn, and other rivers where they successfully do so, I can't make the flow argument add up to no success.


No one seems to have an answer to the tons of fry/fingerlings in the river right now. Logic to me adds 2+2 and the only reasonable explanation is successful spawning. I think we all can agree they don't fall into the river by way of raindrops.


The best hope for the Clinch and taking the management by TWRA to a whole new level, one which we fly fisherman would love, is to prove that the fish are spawning successfully.


My question is why go with personal attacks? I can play that game even better if you wish to take that approach, but I would rather discuss this stuff using logical reasoning to maybe get closer to an answer. And if my points are absurd than please elaborate, I always try and comprehend even though it may not sink in
Jim,
I think your posts were well put and inquisitive. I did not see any personal attack? I agree with you that there are natural reproduction on the Clinch. I believe rainbow trout reproduce fairly well and brown trout reproduce well in one certain area; hence their increased percentage in that area and above. The brook trout seem to spawn and thrive lately as well. H
ere is a little rainbow trout I caught last year in September.
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  #37  
Old 09-21-2012, 08:38 AM
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Jim,
I think your posts were well put and inquisitive. I did not see any personal attack? I agree with you that there are natural reproduction on the Clinch. I believe rainbow trout reproduce fairly well and brown trout reproduce well in one certain area; hence their increased percentage in that area and above. The brook trout seem to spawn and thrive lately as well. Here is a little rainbow trout I caught last year in September.
Nice picture, and there is no debating where a fish of that size comes from, not during September.
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  #38  
Old 09-21-2012, 03:23 PM
The Gubna The Gubna is offline
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I'm sure the following study has been reviewed and discussed on this forum in the past: http://www.tn.gov/twra/fish/StreamRi...uction2006.pdf
From a quick glance, it looks like temperature on the Clinch during brown trout spawning season may be at least part of the issue. The report indicates that rainbow trout reproduction has been documented on the Clinch. I must admit, I kept wondering as I was reading this thread about the references to Rainbows spawning in the Spring. I realize there are many exceptions, but I was under the impression that brown trout generally spawned in the Fall, while Rainbows spawned in the Spring.
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  #39  
Old 09-21-2012, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by The Gubna View Post
I'm sure the following study has been reviewed and discussed on this forum in the past: http://www.tn.gov/twra/fish/StreamRi...uction2006.pdf
From a quick glance, it looks like temperature on the Clinch during brown trout spawning season may be at least part of the issue. The report indicates that rainbow trout reproduction has been documented on the Clinch. I must admit, I kept wondering as I was reading this thread about the references to Rainbows spawning in the Spring. I realize there are many exceptions, but I was under the impression that brown trout generally spawned in the Fall, while Rainbows spawned in the Spring.
There are both fall and spring spawning rainbows on the Clinch as well as some other tailwaters in Tennessee...browns only spawn in the fall though I believe...
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  #40  
Old 09-21-2012, 06:49 PM
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The vast majority of rainbow spawning and the only I have ever witnessed usually is around Martin Luther king day. I have rarely witnessed browns on Redds in the river, but I also have never spent much time on the river during the fall.
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