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  #11  
Old 08-22-2008, 02:59 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by kytroutman View Post
You can't have electricity at some of the lowest rates in the nation without generating schedules. Without the cheap electricity, you don't have the majority of the business existing in the South or looking to locate in the South. TVA was the selling point for Mercedes, BMW, Toyota and KIA to locate their manufacturing plants in the South. Without those plants, a dismal employment picture would be even worse. Also, consider the fact that the generation schedule is due to the increased demand for electricity in other areas. How much generation could be reduced if every house in East TN would turn the A/C off for a while and just open the windows?

Good gracious where to begin

How does TVA power affect the KIA plant which is located in SW Georgia on the Chattahochee river, which is not fed by any TVA river system nor controlled by a TVA dam? Same goes for Mercedes, BMW, and Toyota.

The increased generation is due to the mandate for 25,000 cfs downstream. Go to TVA's website, pick up the phone, it is all out there to be read and learned about and it is not about electricity.
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  #12  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:03 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by tennswede View Post
Brook Trout is not even a trout. It's a char and I seriously doubt Little T supported many of those in it's lower reaches where Tellico is nowadays.
The Tellico river and the Little T are completely different rivers.

Little T- or the Little Tennessee River and Tellico not the same thing.

Little T tailwater coldwater fishery is gone, Tellico river all but a short stretch is freestone and still very much viable.

ANd BTW I am being species specific, if all fisheries are being adversly affected by a min CFS rule then something needs to be adjusted to not be detrimental.

You all are very incorrect with your assessment that power demand is the sole reason for the increase in flow regimes. Please do some research on why things changed in 2005 and come back to the discussion.

Here: http://www.tva.gov/river/lakeinfo/systemwide.htm

Only the last wording says a word about hydro power. The rest especially min flow to keep river beds dry is politically spun. The problem this year and last is how unbelievably dry it has been and how there is little if any runoff. In a normal year none of this would be a problem, but two years back to back is having a negative impact on the resource.
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  #13  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:08 PM
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Paula Begley Paula Begley is offline
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This can be a hot button issue and I just wanted to thank you all for remaining civil with this topic. Really, thanks.

Paula
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  #14  
Old 08-22-2008, 03:13 PM
tennswede tennswede is offline
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Just to clarify, when I refer to Tellico in this discussion I don't mean Tellico River, I mean the dam for the purpose of this discussion. The dam which created Tellico Lake in 1979.
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  #15  
Old 08-22-2008, 05:11 PM
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kytroutman kytroutman is offline
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Waterwolf, TVA controls the major power grid in the South. They don't have to be the direct seller of the power. They also sell power through AEP and the RECC programs in the Southeast as well as control the real estate in a number of large acreage industrial parks. That was the basis of my comments.
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  #16  
Old 08-22-2008, 05:21 PM
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PeteCz PeteCz is offline
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Default Good Debate on a sensitive issue

Guys, you are both bringing up some very good points. So much so that I decided to do some research and try to learn something new today (since work is killing me...).

Here is the initial premise for TVA:
Established by the U.S. Congress in 1933 as a critical component of President Franklin Roosevelt's Depression-era "New Deal," the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) was initially created primarily to manage the Tennessee River's navigation and flood control problems, to encourage reforestation and proper land use, and to foster agricultural and industrial development. In time, the TVA grew to become the nation's largest public power provider serving more than 8 million customers over an 80,000-square mile region covering the Tennessee Valley. This area includes most of Tennessee and portions of Mississippi, Kentucky, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, and Virginia. Following decades of operations as a massive bureaucracy, the TVA has dramatically streamlined itself in recent years in order to boost its competitiveness in preparation for the anticipated onset of deregulation.

In 1959 legislation was passed that changed TVA from a Government funded agency to a self-funding agency and thus making it more profit-centric.

Through time it has evolved, and now is based on three tenets: Energy, Environmental Stewardship and Economic Development and trying to balance the demands of all three at the same time.

Recently, in preparation for impending energy deregulation, TVA has taken on several internal projects to reduce its operating costs and overhead.


Here are a few links for anyone else interested:
http://www.answers.com/topic/tennessee-valley-authority
http://www.tva.gov/abouttva/pdf/tva_glance.pdf
http://www.tva.gov/environment/policy.htm

The reality is that while we may want to protect the tailwaters for the betterment of coldwater fishing (which did not exist before TVA to the extent that it does now), there are a multitude of forces at play which will always trump fishing. Namely Energy and Economic Development. TVA supplies cheap power to the area to the benefit of new companies moving to the area and creating jobs. Yes our rates have gone up, but we are still one of the cheapest areas in the country to start a new business for a number of reasons (TVA being one of them). They have tried to do better at Environmental Stewardship but there are a lot of competing factions even in that area.

As for the specifics of the release of water on the Hiwassee, since they are spilling and not generating, its also important to remember that their job is to keep the waterways passable. With the 2 year drought we have had that is becoming harder and harder to accomplish. Compound that with problems at the dam and it may have been their only option. They have demonstrated that they are interested in helping with coldwater Fishery maintenance (to a certain point), but it will not win out over all the other competing factors.

Waterwolf posted a good link as well regarding the minimum flows. Here is the net of what is happening, due to the drought conditions (from that link):
If the total volume of water flowing into Chickamauga Reservoir is less than needed to meet system-wide flow requirements, additional water must be released from upstream reservoirs to augment the natural inflows (a function of rainfall and runoff), resulting in some drawdown of these projects. How much water is released depends on the time period and the total volume of water in storage in 10 tributary reservoirs: Blue Ridge, Chatuge, Cherokee, Douglas, Fontana, Nottely, Hiwassee, Norris, South Holston, and Watauga.

Are they perfect? Of course not. Should we stay on top of what they are doing? Absolutely. I think the biggest problem right now is Mother Nature. We need a break from this drought.
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  #17  
Old 08-22-2008, 05:26 PM
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kytroutman kytroutman is offline
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Pete, you missed one website (www.tvaed.com) which is the Tennessee Valley Authority Economic Development site. TVA is involved in much more than just power generation in the region.
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  #18  
Old 08-22-2008, 05:48 PM
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PeteCz PeteCz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kytroutman View Post
Pete, you missed one website (www.tvaed.com) which is the Tennessee Valley Authority Economic Development site. TVA is involved in much more than just power generation in the region.
I guess I should apologize for the long-winded post. Buried in there somewhere is the fact that TVA stands for three principles: Energy, Environmental Stewardship and Economic Development.
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  #19  
Old 08-22-2008, 07:04 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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You all should also keep in mind:

Clinch River enthusiasts lobbied and got the Weir Dam project approved which stabilized minimum flows, they also lobbied for the implementation of hub baffles to increase D.O.

South Holston Enthusiasts lobbied to get the weir dam built.

Hiwasee enthusiasts lobbied to have recreational releases on the weekends.

Clinch enthusiasts lobbied to get recreational releases.

Elk River enthusiasts lobbied to get a comprehensive study done of why the fishery is in peril.

Holston River/Cherokee Lake enthusiasts lobbied to increase D.O. above and below the dam by implementing an oxygen injection system.

These are just a few of the success stories that come to my pea brain in relation to enthusiasts not rolling over to TVA and speaking out when things could be done differently.

If you all want to roll over then fine, but please thank those who work their butts off behind the scenes to improve the quality of the resource. Sitting back and watching the world go by will not change anything and just for your information myself and several others have been very active over the last month or so to come to some sort of agreement to better serve every entity involved with our river systems.

Next time you get the chance to wade the Clinch during the summer on a prescribed schedule, or notice the thriving benthic life in our rivers, the consistent minimum flows maintained by proper water mgt., realize that those things did not come about from just living with what is passed down from aunt TVA.

Some of you all may know David Buxbaum most probably don't, but if you ever meet him all of you owe him a big thanks for his untiring work many years ago to improve our tailwaters to where they are now by working with TVA to find a happy medium. He lives in Atlanta now, but haunted the very waters you all love to talk about, and if it weren't for him the Jail section would be in bad shape due to low flows with no generation.

Think about this next time you wade one of coldwater rivers.
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  #20  
Old 08-22-2008, 07:43 PM
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PeteCz PeteCz is offline
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Default Agree and Disagree

I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said in this last post. With all things being equal, TVA can be persuaded to address longer term issues. If a constituency brings forth a reasonable proposal and in doesn't adversely affect other groups, chances are TVA will approve the measure. We are all very thankful for the folks that have worked tirelessly (and namelessly and thanklessly, no doubt), on behalf of the fishing community and everyone concerned with our local environment. And I hope the fight goes on.

However, this conversation started with a concern over the warm water spilling over Appalachia in response to the breakdown to one of their generators. The article doesn't go into why TVA had the need to keep the flows up, so we can only speculate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterwolf View Post
I agree and it is actions like this that prove to me that TVA has lost touch with the environmental impacts of some of their actions over the last 3 years.

The Elk River is about dead due to their generating regimes.

The Holston Trout fishery just got whacked again as temps have climbed into the middle 70's.

Now the Hiwassee takes a bath, because they are too ignorant to NOT SPILL 85 degree water down a coldwater fishery. Why that seemed like a good idea is beyond me, but would it have killed them to scale back generation for a few days while they got things fixed in order to save the fishery.
I like your passion for this issue, but I believe that there is more to the situation. With an extended dry period on top of a bad 2 year drought, water flows are at very low levels throughout the watershed and unfortunately for the coldwater fisheries, the water has to keep flowing regardless of the warming temperatures. A big part of TVAs mission has been to regulate the flow of water through the system and when a generator breaks down, they may have to take drastic measures. Had we been in a raining period or had the rivers been running strong already, its doubtful that they would have spilled. But it maybe that they had no choice. And it maybe that similar issues regarding flow are causing the damage to some of our tailwaters as well.

I go back to the link you provided:
If the total volume of water flowing into Chickamauga Reservoir is less than needed to meet system-wide flow requirements, additional water must be released from upstream reservoirs to augment the natural inflows (a function of rainfall and runoff), resulting in some drawdown of these projects.

Its possible that its ineptitude or a conspiracy, but I think its more likely a symptom of our drought and their response to what they have been tasked with doing (keep the flows, even at the unfortunate expense of the fish)
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