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  #21  
Old 06-10-2010, 08:52 PM
Crockett Crockett is offline
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Yeah the rangers can ask to look in your pack or gear. but you have the right to tell them no. If you do they will not press it further unless they have witnessed you doing something illegal like picking some plants or something.
The one thing I haven't heard talked about in all of this is what is next for Lynn Camp Prong. Are they going to do some large follow up shocking? Obviously they can't shock the whole stream so what if there are more rainbows in there? Are they going to run the poison again and start over or just wait and hope for the best. I have heard a lot from the fisheries folks on how terrible it is and all the stuff they are going to do to these people that they will never catch, but not any strategy at all on how this may be handled from the fish management perspective which is a bit dissappointing.
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  #22  
Old 06-10-2010, 09:16 PM
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Crockett - the little bit that I have been involved in this process tells me that they will not be starting over. I am scheduled to volunteer again in a few days and will hopefully have a chance to ask what the status is.

I think that the fisheries department made a vocal stand to discourage anymore bucket biology. I don't think the person(s) involved will be caught unless there is a little bragging that makes it around. I really hope that whoever is responsible is that stupid.
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  #23  
Old 06-10-2010, 11:23 PM
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duckypaddler duckypaddler is online now
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Post Update & some more info

So far 15 rainbows had been found. 5 were in locations that were probably missed durimng the initial treatment. Others according to Steve Moore were most likely stocked (Ones Jason shocked for and all found in one short section of stream) as some had clipped fins. Don't know why someone would do this, but it's pretty sad. Now the whole fishery dept has to reschedule therer shoicking schedule to adapt to the fact that Rainbows were present. As I asked Matt Kulp if he thought anty Rainbows were expected and he said definitely not. I will post a report about my 2 days volunteering shortly as I had a sick kid all day today and worked all night.

On a good note there were YOY (Young of year) found throughout the stocked areas so it looks like besides the few rainbows all else is progressing just fine.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2010, 08:04 AM
MBB MBB is offline
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Thanks so much for the update, duckypaddler. I look forward to the update.
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  #25  
Old 06-11-2010, 08:22 AM
ZachMatthews ZachMatthews is offline
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Hey Jim, guys -

If I recall correctly from law school, search and seizure laws are pretty darn weak these days. You need probable cause to search under the Constitution but there are a whole lot of exceptions. Nothing prevents an officer from asking to see what's in a bag politely. Even private citizens can do that (I get searched every time I go to a Braves game).

If someone declines to allow you to look in the bag, no big deal, just let them go on their way, BUT that becomes one of the factors in keeping an eye on a person for probable cause purposes. If an officer heard water sloshing on a pack or cooler, he would absolutely have probable cause to search, because that's not something you're typically going to hear (not a lot of water anyway).

There are many other reasons why an officer might be allowed to search a cooler, too, like enforcing the law on no glass bottles in the backcountry. Believe me, the rangers know this stuff cold. They will find a way to look.

As far as ages of trout go, I think 3-6 years is a bit short, though that might be very reasonable for a typical mountain fish. I know record trout live more than a decade, sometimes up to 12-16 years in good conditions (like lakes). Mountain fish are highly unlikely to live that long.

At the end of the day the rainbow trout is a very flexible animal. It adapts very well to greatly different conditions. We see body size as the main indication of that adaptability, but if you pull one trout out of the environment it's adapted for and put it in another one (stocking a hatchery stocker in a mountain stream, for instance), you've got to adjust your expectations.

Most of the hatchery websites I'm seeing from various state agencies estimate a hatchery 12" bow at about 2 years old. The Alaska Game and Fish website estimates trout begin to spawn at 3 years old and continue through age 7, varying greatly by density of population and size of water.

Anyway, the point is, they need to be caught out ASAP, because they probably have not spawned yet, but they certainly will if left in the river.

Zach
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  #26  
Old 06-11-2010, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
Are they going to do some large follow up shocking? Obviously they can't shock the whole stream so what if there are more rainbows in there? Are they going to run the poison again.
That exactly what they are already doing. Yes they will shock the whole stream again. And yes Matt already had a strategy to fix several problem areas. While this is not good news, it's not the end of the world, and can be dealt with.

As far as stopping people. It's hard, but the park service can employ time motion cameras or other means to catch people. As far as how hard it would be to stock, I think any half smart redneck could accoplish this no problem. Cooler, Ice, bait areator. Wouldn't even need a horse, just a small backpack. Also if someone does get caught and gets at least a $5000 fine and would be liable for all the extra work that is now needed, or even could be held liable for the $300,000 this project has cost.

I know that besides this one section (with 10 fish), the 3 other areas were most likely no caused by anything other than mother nature.
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  #27  
Old 06-11-2010, 08:00 PM
Byron Begley Byron Begley is offline
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I sent Steve an e-mail today recommending a reward for information leading to the conviction of whoever was responsible for transplanting the rainbows. I have not heard back from him yet. We talked yesterday about a lot of ideas but this one didn't come up. Actually this was my friend Jack's idea. Our TU Chapter has a fund balance of around $57,000 the last time I looked. Some of this could be held for a potential reward. Jack and I think this is the only way to catch them while also providing a deterrent from having this happen again. The chances are good that I know this person or these people. Any thoughts?

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  #28  
Old 06-11-2010, 11:43 PM
steamnsteel steamnsteel is offline
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Default Volunteer Question

I was showing this to my 15 year old son and he/we would like to know if any type of volunteering is till needed for Lynn Camp? I could probably work something out in July for a few days maybe even at the end of this month.

By the way, the reward idea might just prove to be a fruitful notion.
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  #29  
Old 06-12-2010, 06:36 AM
Jim Casada Jim Casada is offline
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Byron--I think that's a potentially useful approach. It might lead to the offending party (ies) being reported, but even if it doesn't, there's certain to be a deterrant effect. The National Wild Turkey Federation and other groups have used a similar approach to good advantage.
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  #30  
Old 06-12-2010, 08:10 AM
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GrouseMan77 GrouseMan77 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steamnsteel View Post
I was showing this to my 15 year old son and he/we would like to know if any type of volunteering is till needed for Lynn Camp? I could probably work something out in July for a few days maybe even at the end of this month.

By the way, the reward idea might just prove to be a fruitful notion.
steamnteel - I would send an email to Charlie Chmielewski, who is the volunteer coordinator. His email address is charlieflyfish@gmail.com.

You could also email Matt Kulp (fisheries department) at matt_kulp@nps.gov.

I would probably start with emailing Charlie, he is usually pretty good about responding quickly.
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