killing rainbows..

[silvercreek]

I was trying to recall what they used to neutralize the the antimycin. Permanganate mixed with glycerin will combust after a few seconds. Seems like I recall the forest service used ping pong balls filled with the stuff and injected it with glycerin and dropped it from planes for controlled burns. Purple color ought to show up well for making sure it is mixing well in the water.

[GrouseMan77]

Everyone who said that antimycin was the poison is correct. The rotenone that waterwolf mentioned was used for the same purpose. I got confused and thought that I remembered rotenone being used for the buffer. It's Monday, my brain must have been left at the office.

Thanks for straightening me out Jim.

[2weightfavorite]

One other food for thought...the park officials get all bent out of shape at the people building mini wiers ( go look at metcalf bottoms if you dont now what a mini wier is). They say that they are damaging to the reproduction of who knows what kind of small minnow found in the rivers. I also believe we have some small endangered darters that live in the mountains as well. the chemical used to kill the rainbows kills all fish. Any idea or rough count on how many possible endangered or protected fish were killed? must have been hundreds... All I am saying is DONT BUILD MINI WEIRS AT METCALF!!

[mora521]

I fished Lynn Camp Prong the day they used the Antimycin on Sams Creek and the warning signs at the trailhead said that Antymicin was an antibiotic and it would react adversely with contact lenses,among other things and the trail up Thunderhead Prong was closed.

I have read that Ant. is less destructive to insects than the Rotenone.

Silvercreek that is cool about the reaction with glycerin,the pot.perm. is a strong oxidizer and on well water with strong iron content can be treated with an injector to add the chemical.

2WF I have seen weirs that went all the way across Little River below Metcalf when the flows were low in the summer.I can see how it would impede the travel of minnows.

[2weightfavorite]

my comment on the weirs, is completely sarcastic...

[duckypaddler]

Originally Posted by Jim Casada

The chemical is antimycin, I believe. I'm not a scientist but do have to wonder if it is possible to render harmless, completely and irrevocably, something which is deadly above a waterfall after it drops down below the cascade.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

That chemistry is hard to explain to the mountain folk

http://www.nps.gov/grsm/naturescienc...ntimycin05.pdf

Bottom line is if you see the color change - it's neutralized

While I have seen many people complain about the use, I have never read anything credible (able to pass peer review) to convince me otherwise, other than the fact that in the past much worse things were used that killed the insects, etc

[Jim Casada]

duckypaddler--Your post reads (at least to this one example of mountain folk) as if antimycin doesn't kill insects. It is my understanding that it pretty well wipes out everything in a stream (crayfish, spring lizards, as we mountain folks call salamanders, Devil's knitting needles, a.k.a. know as snake feeders, and insects in general. Is that a misconception? Also, I mentioned some of the inhabitants of mountain streams by their colloquial names just to make a point that we mountain folk, say what you will about our lack of scientific understanding, have a real knack for using descriptive terms. Even the slowest of woods colts would know that (and if you know what a woods colt is I'll give you full marks, betting, as I mention the term, that there are those of lurk in these precincts who will know).
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

[duckypaddler]

Originally Posted by Jim Casada

duckypaddler--Your post reads (at least to this one example of mountain folk) as if antimycin doesn't kill insects. It is my understanding that it pretty well wipes out everything in a stream (crayfish, spring lizards, as we mountain folks call salamanders, Devil's knitting needles, a.k.a. know as snake feeders, and insects in general. Is that a misconception? Also, I mentioned some of the inhabitants of mountain streams by their colloquial names just to make a point that we mountain folk, say what you will about our lack of scientific understanding, have a real knack for using descriptive terms. Even the slowest of woods colts would know that (and if you know what a woods colt is I'll give you full marks, betting, as I mention the term, that there are those of lurk in these precincts who will know).
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

I'm sorry you didn't take my comments as sarcasm. While science is one path to the truth, I have learned plenty of truths from good ole boys with practical experience. I was referring to your point about the poisoning be neutralized, and that science is hard to understand (me included). As for you question about killing insects, I am just a newbie trout fisherman and surely not an entomologist so I am in no way qualified to answer, but here is a quote from the previous link I sent you below.

I have no idea what wood colt is, but I do know the fishing on Buck Fork is heavenly right now! As far as terms go. I thought of a new one after my adventure to Buck Fork - Rhodo-Shins. It's when you have bruises from you ancles to your knees

Degrades into naturally

•

occurring compounds such as antimyctic acid, blastmycic acid, and lactone all of which are harmless to people at these low concentrations (Hussain 1969).

•

ee separate projects indicates antimycin treatment has minimal short-term (<6 months) and NO long-term (>6 months) impacts on aquatic insects (Walker 2003)

[Jim Casada]

duckypaddler--Thanks for the clarification on the insects, and from the info you provide it appears they do indeed die. Tht leads to the obvious question of whether the streams ecosystem ever returns to what it was. The whole restoration program is fraught with "ifs," and that is why I remain quite skeptical even as I hope against hope it works. One reason for my skepticism is history--the Park (and today's biologists will admit as much) got a lot of things wrong in the past. Two examples are the use of rotenone in early speck restoratin efforts and the Abrams Creek debacle. On top of that, they did a great deal of stocking of 'bows, northern strain specks, and even in one case browns in years past.
Frankly I wasn't sure whether you were writing in jest or suggesting I didn't have a clue. Scientifically the latter conclusion would be the accurate one, but there's something to be said for many decades of first-hand observation from a practical naturalist's standpoint. That I do have.
Jim Casada
www.jimcasadaoutdoors.com

[nvr2L8]

Admittedly, the Park may have gotten some things wrong in the past (way past, sounds like). But, if Road Prong and Sams Creek are any indication of future success, I think they may now have it right. Can't wait for similar success in Lynn Camp.