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  #21  
Old 09-19-2011, 12:50 PM
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ChemEAngler ChemEAngler is offline
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Originally Posted by Corbo View Post
Really now; government needs to go on a diet.... I'm tired of the theory that MORE control, more government power and MORE government employees improves anything at all.
In a little over a year the country will have a chance to try and change that mentality....

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Originally Posted by Mike_Anderson View Post
This is a political push from some people who want the rivers and profits only for themselves. It's greedy and it's wrong. Across the board licenses for all guides or nothing at all. Nothing at all has been working very well for a very long time.
This is basically what my email to TWRA said, just in about four times as many words.

How about this idea:

If they are proposing these taxes and fees to account for loss of Federal funding for hatcheries, how about charging the people who account for the need for hatcheries. Why not create two types of trout stamps? One for C&R and one for Creel Fisherman. Make the people who are keeping the fish and reducing the resource pay more. And before anybody jumps on me for saying that, I do keep fish on occasion. So, this isn't a radical C&R proponent here proposing this idea. I just believe in personal responsibility. If I take more than somebody else, I should pay my fair share for that resource. I have never asked for handouts, and don't expect others to pay for my portion.
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  #22  
Old 09-19-2011, 01:02 PM
pineman19 pineman19 is offline
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Originally Posted by ChemEAngler View Post
In a little over a year the country will have a chance to try and change that mentality....



This is basically what my email to TWRA said, just in about four times as many words.

How about this idea:

If they are proposing these taxes and fees to account for loss of Federal funding for hatcheries, how about charging the people who account for the need for hatcheries. Why not create two types of trout stamps? One for C&R and one for Creel Fisherman. Make the people who are keeping the fish and reducing the resource pay more. And before anybody jumps on me for saying that, I do keep fish on occasion. So, this isn't a radical C&R proponent here proposing this idea. I just believe in personal responsibility. If I take more than somebody else, I should pay my fair share for that resource. I have never asked for handouts, and don't expect others to pay for my portion.
ChemE,

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement. I haven't kept a tailwater trout in the 5 or so years I have been fishing TN tailwaters. I have nothing against those who do, but why should myself or others who mainly practice catch-n-release on these waters pay for those who treat these rivers like a entitlement? They raised the cost of the Trout Stamp this year, I guess they are afraid of raising it again, the fish mongers will raise cane if it goes up again, so they are looking for another avenue to generate additional monies. In the end, it's more about politics instead of doing what is proper management for the resources.

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  #23  
Old 09-19-2011, 01:16 PM
mikebone mikebone is offline
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Hello everyone..I just recently was made aware of the whole trout guide license issue. Since I'm coming up on the nearly two decade mark as a full time tailwater guide here I'd like to add my thoughts. First, I am not opposed to a "guide license" in the state of Tennessee, never have been. But it should be done to ensure a level of safety and professionalism, not as a fund raising effort. Guides already bring in money to TWRA through license sales. I regularly take folks who purchase three day licenses with a trout stamp, out of state folks pay more, often they fish one day, take no fish from the resource (we've always been catch and release), and leave. These same people stay in local hotels, frequent local restaurants and contribute to the area economy. Out of state guides probably contribute much less to the local economy but still bring in revenue to the TWRA through licenses.
Be assured, nobody is making a killing at this. You don't become a guide for the money, and you sure won't stay one for long if that is your motivation. Not everyone who floats in a driftboat is a guide, matter of fact, most these days aren't. Most people here probably already know that, but I wonder sometimes about TWRA's perception. There are very few people out there who count on guiding as they're primary source of income. I know most of 'em..they're good guys, they don't have beach houses. It's a lot like farming, some years you make it, some years you don't.
Don't get me wrong, if you derive income from a resource you probably should contribute a little more, but it needs to be fair. Tennessee is not Montana, people don't travel from all over the world to fish here. I for one am happy about that as it keeps the traffic, and number of guides down by virtue of supply and demand, a tried and true system. Enforcement of the current regulations on tailwaters is quite frankly a joke. Anyone who spends much time there knows that. TWRA officers are already stretched thin, where would they find the resources to enforce this new regulation? Are you going to stop everyone in a driftboat and ask if they're a guide?How much money could it actually bring in minus the cost of administration? This has been proposed before and found to be not feasable. What changed?
Bottom line is this reg would make an already tough business tougher, ask the fly shops. Tennessee tailwaters, like all great rivers, will ultimately only be maintained through common sense regulations that benefit the resource, and dilligent enforcement of those regulations. Not through knee jerk reactions just to appear to be doing something.
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  #24  
Old 09-19-2011, 04:56 PM
Mike_Anderson Mike_Anderson is offline
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I'd love to know where the overwhelming 73% of Trout guides support of this came from? Guides that were hand fed to the agency for the survey no doubt...

73% supported a proposal that's cost and regulation was open ended at the time of the survey? Wow!

Survey Results
http://www.sceniccityfishing.com/for...ey_Results.pdf
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  #25  
Old 09-19-2011, 06:47 PM
mikebone mikebone is offline
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Wow Mike...that is interesting! Took a look at the "survey" results from the link you posted. Thanks. I would like to see that list myself. None of the guys I have spoken to had heard anything from TWRA at all about it, and I seriously doubt if you asked around at all, one of our names would not have come up. One of them has even published books on the area! Unbelieveable! Gotta make some calls..thanks again!
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  #26  
Old 09-19-2011, 11:01 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Grumpy View Post
I had a discussion with a couple of my TWRA friends yesterday & after the discussion i can't support it, it does need to apply to all guides & not just tailwater guides.
I do like the FANTASY world that some of you guys are living in though, taxes don't run TWRA, license sells, a few dollars off violation ticket's & some Federal funding, thank goodness the Goverment hasn't gotten ahold of control over TWRA, we wouldn't have squat after they wasted the money.
I would support a guide license on all levels, as i posted earlier, i can't guide in other states w/o purchasing one.
Enforcing it would be a nightmare, the officers asked yesterday how they could tell if i were guiding or not, i told them they'd know i wasn't guiding if i were in the front or back of the drifter instead of in the middle.
Has TWRA made some mistakes, sure, just like you or me, it happens.

Grumpy
TWRA is the poster child for mistakes and government wasting money. I could list the hundreds of wasted projects, salaries, etc etc that they do every year, but it would shut this sight down.

Name one aspect of management they do better then other states surrounding us? And you better support it with facts or stats.

They are a travesty, and this new tax is just another fine example of the lack of intelligence they possess from their core to the guys in the field.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-2011, 11:06 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Mike_Anderson View Post
I'd love to know where the overwhelming 73% of Trout guides support of this came from? Guides that were hand fed to the agency for the survey no doubt...

73% supported a proposal that's cost and regulation was open ended at the time of the survey? Wow!

Survey Results
http://www.sceniccityfishing.com/for...ey_Results.pdf
Mike they come up with these BS numbers every time they need to push some crap legislation through. They have pulled it for deer regs, turkey regs, crappie regs etc etc. They hire it out to UT and do random surveys generally, on this one in particular I don't know the facts, but I know of zero guides who even remotely support this proposal.

Cheme makes a great point, and one that I agree with 100%. Why not charge the folks who actually remove part of the resource more, that seems far more equitable then hammering a person who takes nothing.

Bottom line TWRA is as bad or worse then the federal govt. anyone who has ever attended a public meeting will understand what I am saying. They are basically almost impossible to talk with in an intelligent manner, and have their mind made up prior to even hearing logical opposing views.

A better idea to save money would be to eliminate the coldwater fisheries folks, they are pitiful at best and a giant money pit. If any evidence is needed look at the horrid job they do of managing a wealth of coldwater resources now.
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  #28  
Old 09-20-2011, 12:53 AM
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I'm all for a nominal fee and more stringent requirements to be a guide. NC charges a nominal guide fee,. The real cost are acquiring the permits to fish National Parks and Forest, liability insurance, and the required training such as first aid and cpr. I have long been an advocate of these requirements and will not fish with a guide who isn't legit. Always ask before you book a trip, some pirate could take you out and get you killed or seriously injured and you wouldn't have any means of paying your hospital or doctor bills, let alone compensation to your family for your life. Kinda hard to get any money out of someone who lives in an old school bus and drives a 15 year old pick up and has $11. 32 in his bank account
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  #29  
Old 09-20-2011, 07:01 AM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by flyman View Post
I'm all for a nominal fee and more stringent requirements to be a guide. NC charges a nominal guide fee,. The real cost are acquiring the permits to fish National Parks and Forest, liability insurance, and the required training such as first aid and cpr. I have long been an advocate of these requirements and will not fish with a guide who isn't legit. Always ask before you book a trip, some pirate could take you out and get you killed or seriously injured and you wouldn't have any means of paying your hospital or doctor bills, let alone compensation to your family for your life. Kinda hard to get any money out of someone who lives in an old school bus and drives a 15 year old pick up and has $11. 32 in his bank account
You do realize that all guides that are worth their salt have insurance for the very thing you speak of. Not many of the guides I know are just rolling in cash, they make a living but certainly aren't the richest Americans.

What's wrong with a 15 year old pick up?

You have a lot to learn when it comes to choosing guides.

If I go with a guide and have a heart attack, how is that his fault? Guess personal responsibility is totally gone in this country.

Progressives have **** near taken over ever facet of our society, and will/are destroying capitalism with every passing day.
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  #30  
Old 09-20-2011, 07:59 AM
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Waterwolf,
I think I may not have made myself clear. I've know a lot of people over the years that have called themselves "guides" and had neither insurance nor the proper permits to be conducting business in the National Park nor the National Forest.

There's nothing wrong with a 15 year old pick up, mine is only 13/14, I was using that simply as an example of the lack of assets that some have. If a situation were to arise that came to a civil lawsuit there might be very little in the way of assets.

It's not a guides fault if I have a heart attack, but it would be nice to know that a guide could offer you some help if you did have one, or some other type of accident, like a lighting strike, or drowning.

I'm about as conservative as they come, and believe me, I wouldn't have much trouble picking out a guide, or knowing the warning signs of one to avoid. I know guiding is hard work, and a good one earns every cent he makes.
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Last edited by flyman; 09-20-2011 at 08:02 AM.. Reason: 42
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