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  #31  
Old 11-26-2009, 12:22 AM
tjw37909 tjw37909 is offline
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ChemEAngler, I was there today, and only managed one fish, but it was in about 6 hours fishing. By the end of the day I was kinda down, making sloppy casts and just knowing I needed to leave even though I could't leave "the big" one in there. I caught an 18 inch rainbow within 15 minutes of fishing, and never got another bite. I threw every nymph and streamer I had. I am sure my skill level can take partial blame for my lack of fish though. My overall biggest fish(to net) came outside the trophy section over there.
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  #32  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:30 AM
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Jim,
I enjoy all of your posts, and enjoyed these as well. I personally do not think that you come off as some type of purist, shaking your nose at the commoners catching the hatchery fish, but that is just my opinion.

On the topic of the land swap I disagree in principle. I will say up front that I do not know any of the history of the land swap, and know none of the politics for why it was done. The thing that I do know is that the Indians, throughout our history, have tended to get the short end of the stick. For this reason, I don't mind seeing Indian tribes making money of gambling, I say more power to them. If they can take land that most times was considered as non-prime land (although the land may be considered prime now), and use it to make a living then more power to them. If they got over on us on this land swap, then more power to them on that score too! Please do not get me wrong, I think that the land is beautiful, and would have loved to see it as part of the park too, and if the situation was different, i.e. the land was traded to some wealth developer, I would agree with you.

Anyway, just my two cents. I personally enjoy fishing for wild fish in park waters and elsewhere, as well as fishing hatchery supported waters. The each have their own unique charm.

Happy Thanksgiving to all, may you all have a wonderful day of thanks. I personally am thankful for all of my family and loved ones as well as all of the wonderful places that I have had the opportunity to see and explore. I am also thankful to have the opportunity to correspond and share ideas and thoughts with so many experienced and intelligent people on this board. Thanks to all for their input and thoughts.
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  #33  
Old 11-26-2009, 10:20 AM
Jim Casada Jim Casada is offline
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John--Thanks. I have no problem with the casion, although it will never get a penny of my money, and I actually applaud the tribe for using large amounts of money to acquire prime land throughout the area. As one local put it, in apt fashion, the huge amounts of money they are making at the casino is a form of "the red man's revenge."
My problem with the land swap is that the land which was part of the Park, which belongs to all the nation, was suddenly swapped in a deal anyone who examines it will have to conclude was singularly one-sided. It was a lovely piece of bottom land, easily accessed (it is situated at and just above the juncture of Raven Fork and Luftee) with considerable biological and archaelogical significance. In exchange the Park got very inaccessible land worth nothing in terms of human enjoyment of natural wonders or from an ecological standpoint.
Maybe I'm just too close to the situation, but I would add that most everyone in the environmental community, as well as the Park support groups, found the swap extremely troubling.

It's history now, although there is one other element I haven't mentioned. In the aftermath of the land swap the Park yielded public rights of access to a mighty fine stretch of wild trout water. It is now part of the Tribal catch-and-release waters, so the Cherokees benefitted in that regard as well. As to how fishermen fared, it depends on whether you prefer wild trout or pay to fish hatchery-supported waters. For me it was a loss; for others and certainly for the Cherokee economy, a huge gain.

Jim Casada
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  #34  
Old 11-26-2009, 11:08 AM
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Jim,
That was my point exactly....that if the Tribe got a one-sided win with the history they have had in this country for getting the shorter end of the stick, then good on them. It is about time they got the better end of the deal. Don't get me wrong, I do understand your point, and agree that it was a loss to the nation as a whole. I may not even agree with how the tribe uses it in total, but I cannot bring myself to begrudge the fact that they got over for once.

I agree with you that it was a loss, 100%. I also conceede that the land belonged to the Indian Nation long before it belonged to ours. I mourn the loss to us, while at the same time celebrate that the Indian's have been the benefactor for a change.

You have a wonderful Thanksgiving, and again thank you for all of your wisdom, experience, and insight that you so readily share with the rest of us. I think you in yourself are a treasure of the Smokies.

John
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  #35  
Old 11-26-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjw37909 View Post
ChemEAngler, I was there today, and only managed one fish, but it was in about 6 hours fishing. By the end of the day I was kinda down, making sloppy casts and just knowing I needed to leave even though I could't leave "the big" one in there. I caught an 18 inch rainbow within 15 minutes of fishing, and never got another bite. I threw every nymph and streamer I had. I am sure my skill level can take partial blame for my lack of fish though. My overall biggest fish(to net) came outside the trophy section over there.
TJW,

I hear ya. I threw every nymph pattern I had at them with 2 or 3 splitshot to get to the bottom quickly, and they never touched it. I switched to a yellow stimi when I saw a large palomino surface feeding. I missed it and another average bow on the stimi. Finally before leaving I switched to an olive/black woolly bugger and that is what I caught my fish on.
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  #36  
Old 11-26-2009, 08:45 PM
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Jim & John I see and under stand both sides of the views on this topic and agree with both sides but I have to lean more to Johns side of view and look at it as the cherokee just got back what originally belonged to them in the first place,yes it is a lose as far as a prime wild trout stretch of water but on the same note is almost inaccessible due to the commercialasation of the location being that cherokee is a tourist resort kind of location. What we should be more concerned with is the " corn fisherman " themselves as they do more damage than most of us " purist "
combined. Point at hand was there earlier this year on opening weekend and had a pool that I love to fish ,have always caught fish in this pool be it wild or stockers , there was agroup or family fishing this pool ,so I watched it all day ever time I came by they were there fishing no problem. Later in the day they had gone so I stopped to fish it ,walked to the edge of the river and found they had left all their trash and the remnets of the fish they had caught and cleaned and thrown back into the river, as mad as it made me I still set out to fish the pool so I proceded to get geared up and fish the pool , no sooner had I geared and rigged and got into the water they returned and proceded to barge right on in on top of me and proceded to fish again without remorse or respect for someone else there fishing and you as a flyfisherman knows it is impossible to fish with bait slingers throwing in ,on and all around you so I was the one that regretfully and grudfully left. So I guess my point being is not to be upset as much with the politics of the matter as you should be with the people that abuse the natural beauty and pristine surroundings of this magnificent resourse just like the rich developers that are cutting these mountains up and putting in communities and developments all in these mountains. Jim I didn't grow up persay in these mountains but being a south carolina boy I have spent my years coming here since I was just a wee lad with my grandparents and on my own as I got older and I can say that I dont think there is a local that loves these mountains more than I do and it saddens me to see whats happening to them and it being called "progress". I have been a viewer of this site for a few years but not much of a " blogger " persay so I hope not to have offended or upset anyone . There are a lot of well educated and fine people here and enjoy the reading and info I get from here .That being said hope every one has a safe and Happy Thanksgiving .

hillbillydave

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  #37  
Old 11-26-2009, 08:56 PM
Jim Casada Jim Casada is offline
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Hillbillydave--I share your extreme frustration with people who trash water or land. They are themselves trash. Obviously the situation you talk about was outside the Park and did not involve the catch-and-release Cherokee water, since in the case of the Park there is no opening day and in the case of both use of corn is verboten.

What you observed is something which absolutely frosts my grits, and although I'm normally pretty soft-spoken and even reclusive when it comes to fishing, on more than one occasion I guess I've invited trouble by saying something to folks who were trashing the good earth.

You are right that most fly fishermen fall outside this shameful mold, and for that we can certainly be thankful.

Obviously you've learned to love the Smokies, but I'm more blessed. Why, you might ask. Simply because I was, by sheer accident of birth, born there. I didn't realize it as a boy, but increasingly with each passing year I know that mine was an extremely fortunate youth. Few indeed are those who live within walking distance of a fine trout stream, have mentors aplenty to teach them, have parents who tolerate a fly-fishing fool, and who enjoy the good fortune of long and loving links with the Smokies. Incidentally, I would also point out the fact that there is a difference between being OF the Smokies and IN the Smokies. It is elusive, effervescent, and maybe even indefinable, but it exists. Just ask any son or daughter of the Smokies (as I did at my last high school reunion) and they will tell you that lying deep within the depths of their innermost being is an abiding love of place which comes from coming of age in that place.

That's enough of a philosophical bent, but I hope it suggests that the general tenor or your post is something I've given a great deal of thought to over the years.

Jim Casada
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  #38  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:39 PM
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hillbillydave hillbillydave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Casada View Post
Hillbillydave--I share your extreme frustration with people who trash water or land. They are themselves trash. Obviously the situation you talk about was outside the Park and did not involve the catch-and-release Cherokee water, since in the case of the Park there is no opening day and in the case of both use of corn is verboten.

What you observed is something which absolutely frosts my grits, and although I'm normally pretty soft-spoken and even reclusive when it comes to fishing, on more than one occasion I guess I've invited trouble by saying something to folks who were trashing the good earth.

You are right that most fly fishermen fall outside this shameful mold, and for that we can certainly be thankful.

Obviously you've learned to love the Smokies, but I'm more blessed. Why, you might ask. Simply because I was, by sheer accident of birth, born there. I didn't realize it as a boy, but increasingly with each passing year I know that mine was an extremely fortunate youth. Few indeed are those who live within walking distance of a fine trout stream, have mentors aplenty to teach them, have parents who tolerate a fly-fishing fool, and who enjoy the good fortune of long and loving links with the Smokies. Incidentally, I would also point out the fact that there is a difference between being OF the Smokies and IN the Smokies. It is elusive, effervescent, and maybe even indefinable, but it exists. Just ask any son or daughter of the Smokies (as I did at my last high school reunion) and they will tell you that lying deep within the depths of their innermost being is an abiding love of place which comes from coming of age in that place.

That's enough of a philosophical bent, but I hope it suggests that the general tenor or your post is something I've given a great deal of thought to over the years.

Jim Casada

Jim , I didn't mean that they were accually fishing with corn just my discription of bait fisherman fishing for stockers ,and no it wasnt in the park it was in the boundry , being of mature age I dont get as far off the beaten path as I use to so have to stick to easier access but still love it just as much just have to work a little harder for the wild trout that every one else has caught already as I dont keep a single fish that I catch in the park on the other hand the ones I catch in the boundry well ...thats a different story. There's nothing more gradiffing than to catch a wild Smokey Mountain trout on a fly that you tye yourself and fool those willey little devils. I've got some holes that I fish everytime I come and have caught some of the same trout more than once . Please forgive me if I dont disclose the locations to specificly as they are roadside locations but not a lot of pressure so would like to keep them that way.

hillbillydave
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  #39  
Old 11-26-2009, 11:09 PM
tjw37909 tjw37909 is offline
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Chem, I caught my bow at the slow end of a hole on a white bucktail streamer as it swung across. Made for a long day catching one that early and getting my hopes up. I think I will give it a shot again one day next week before packing up the fly rod and breaking out the hiking boots for the winter. The cold weather should give me plenty of time to work on my fly tying that I am trying to learn.
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