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  #11  
Old 01-12-2011, 10:59 AM
narcodog narcodog is offline
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Some good advise here and here is my assessment of you, your an A$$.
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  #12  
Old 01-12-2011, 02:01 PM
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ChemEAngler ChemEAngler is offline
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Hey guys, could it be that we are getting a little bit hostile here with a relatively new guy to the forum? Let's try to chill out a little. Maybe his research was lacking in some areas, it should be our place to point him in the correct direction or enlighten him. So, let's try to show him a little southern courtesy.

Like 2weight said, this is a very touchy issue around here. Personally I supported it on this one watershed as a test measure. Had it been discussed doing it on multiple streams, I would have been on the other side of the fence. It appears that a couple of bucket biologists took it upon themselves to restore the rainbows and undermine the entire effort, I think other variables such as this should be considered before another attempt is made.

Corbo,
Here is part of the enlightening portion:
As somebody who does a lot of travelling for work, especially to the northeast, not much fires up a southern "fella" more than an outsider sticking his nose into something in a not so polite fashion. There is a definite language and personality barrier between southerners and northerners, that should be taken into respect when posting on a southern based forum. There has never been a shortage, nor will there ever be, of people who think that just because we live in the south we are uneducated and don't have the resources that "big city folk" do. That couldn't be farther from the truth, just look at the research triangle NC, Oak Ridge National Lab, Savannah River National Lab, and that doesn't include some of the top ranked universities in the country. You may not have been saying that, but your post came across as such. My advice to you is that we all must adapt our tact when venturing outside of our home environment.

If you are really interested in having an educational discussion regarding this topic, then let's do so. Myself and others would most likely learn from such discussion. However, if this was intended to be a post more representative of a troll, then I ask that we let this die and focus more on our respective areas of interest.

Best Regards,
Travis
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Last edited by ChemEAngler; 01-12-2011 at 02:06 PM.. Reason: Some Clarification
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2011, 02:19 PM
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NDuncan NDuncan is offline
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To be fair... he did say we could beat him with a stick....

In all seriousness, Travis is right about keeping it a more civil exchange of ideas, data, and viewpoints, and I apologize if my over-defensiveness kicked in there in my interpretation of the tone of the original posts.
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  #14  
Old 01-12-2011, 03:27 PM
narcodog narcodog is offline
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Although I am new to this forum I have fished the Park and the south for many years. I support the Parks studies and efforts to restore the Brookies to their natural surroundings. We "man" destroyed the land the Park now sets on and though I don't agree with all of the Parks policies I still support their efforts.
An individual that has very little knowledge of the area that he is condemning should be fully versed before any type of criticism is leveled against the Park or the South in general.
I think this individual is just trying to stir the pot.
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  #15  
Old 01-12-2011, 07:11 PM
Corbo Corbo is offline
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Whoa

First off I live in Seymour, I grew up in NC then Southern Jersey and moved to Maine after college and then after 25 years living among the liberal elite in the most taxed and oppressive place in our country I move here (one of the best places).


Here and up in Maine I applaud efforts to "re-establish fish lost due to the effects of mankind.... MY personal environmental effort & record with Conservation groups like Tu is tough to match.... but who cares? I retired now from enviro stuff and I never liked hanging out enviros as I'm an extremely conservative conservationist.

I didn't move south to tell folks what to think or believe or cherish..... I moved here because I share the same moral and societal values most southerners accept as normal behavior but are lost in the Northeastern liberal states.

MY POINT was that killing everything in a stream also kills the genetics of the remaining stock of ORIGINAL BROOK TROUT.... a genetically pure native brook trout can not be replaced with same.

My second point is that replacing a good fishery with a marginal fishery in a place that didn't have any pure genetically original fish may not be a good idea when you are killing all the other lifeforms in the stream.

After all this work.... what has been gained? Many folks say that closing all these streams for years never increased the population of brook trout.... so a fishery was lost for many years based on conjecture now that time has passed and the studies are finished or continuing.

Many times when a fishery is closed people lose interest in it all together.... while it's nice to have "marginally good" water totally set aside for brook trout it may never be a very good fishery or as good as one with non-natives.

There is a big difference between a native brook trout and an imported brook trout and some waters will never support either very well due to the lasting effects of pollution, forestry, erosion pH etc.... NO MATTER HOW BADLY YOU WANT.

If I saw a guy with a bucket next to a smokey mountain stream he would be detained against his will at the very least.

Not trying to stir the pot; only questioning the science... that's all. No offense intended so please try not to take any.
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  #16  
Old 01-12-2011, 09:30 PM
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Last edited by buzzmcmanus; 01-12-2011 at 09:48 PM.. Reason: I don't need to get involved in this stuff
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  #17  
Old 01-12-2011, 11:55 PM
mcfly mcfly is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post

MY POINT was that killing everything in a stream also kills the genetics of the remaining stock of ORIGINAL BROOK TROUT.... a genetically pure native brook trout can not be replaced with same.

My second point is that replacing a good fishery with a marginal fishery in a place that didn't have any pure genetically original fish may not be a good idea when you are killing all the other lifeforms in the stream.


There is a big difference between a native brook trout and an imported brook trout and some waters will never support either

Not trying to stir the pot; only questioning the science... .
When I say you are ignorant, it is not meant as an insult, but the comments above clearly show that you do not know very much about the process or the "science'' of what the fisheries folks in the park are doing, so you should really look more into it before "questioning the science".

The fact is that the Park fisheries biologists are top notch, if not some of the best in the world, and their work has been applauded many times over. I wont' argue with you or go into the "science", but their process doesn't approach total stream kill whatsoever. Also, the genetics have been studied and are pure.
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  #18  
Old 01-13-2011, 01:29 AM
Corbo Corbo is offline
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After reviewing my posts on this subject I see that I have made no reference whatsoever about "the south" or "southerners".... nor did I claim that northerners were more experienced in these matters of restoration.

I also said in my OP that I applaud the efforts to restore brook trout.

I did not say that anyone in particular, group or the park scientists/biologist were not knowledgable or claim they were incompetent.

And I might mention that I do have much knowledge in these matters.

In a perfect world I respect the integrity of God's genetic make-up in a stream over mans. It would be awesome if native brook trout waters were not poluted with rainbows, browns or brookies with poluted heritage.

While it is true I don't have the knowledge that you guys enjoy on these waters I still think it a shame to poison fish in waters that may be marginally restorable for native genetically pure brookies.

This effort to restore brook trout was substantial, costly, well intentioned and had lots of volunteer activists and I'm grateful to all of you who helped out. Brook trout are hands down the most beautiful fish between Georgia and Maine; unfortunately they are the most vulnerable to degraded habitat, acid rain/pH, deforestation and warm water. I'm personally not a big supporter of dumping more poison into mostly pristine watersheds.

DDT is a wonderful substance; it virtually cured the worldwide problem of bed bugs half a century ago, it eliminated insects that kill precious stands of softwoods and hard woods from the south through new england, it wiped out mosquitos in countries with extremely dangerous pests like mosquitos/malaria etc. More of it was sprayed in Maine per square mile than anywhere else on the planet and folks there wonder why ME has the highest cancer rate in the nation.

Science is most often well intentioned... look at all the TV commercials from lawyers looking to cash in on all the "bad" drugs that we now know are harmful... Well I have taken four of them all recalled in the last several years.... fortunately none of them killed me. As I type a pump is mainlining an extremely potent antibiotic into the top of my heart and while it might prevent me from losing my right foot from an infection caused by a lousy surgeon a year ago... I worry about what side effects it may cause me now or later.... I'm trusting my doctors but just like the poisons dumped into rivers you just never really know what the long term side effects may be today.

I meant to offend nobody; especially not a Southerner... I may have lived among the yankees for a long time but I'm certainly not a ****ed Yankee; fact is I'm a right-winged anarchist who would seriously enjoy fighting for the rights of southern states against the evil Northern Federalists who have railroad the well valued people of the South for 100 years I moved here to fight with you... not against you.... for both good fishing and everything else you folks treasure and value.

Chill out; I am not the enemy.... questioning the use of poison in a river doesn't make me a bad person even when THE GOVERNMENT tells you it is safe... The FDA is wrong all the time..
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  #19  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:57 AM
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rivergal rivergal is offline
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Sounds like the Civil War 150th anniversary is heating up !
My Tennessee kin were Union. 3rd Tennessee cavalry.
Some Tennessee families had kin on both sides causing divided loyalties.
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  #20  
Old 01-13-2011, 12:16 PM
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duckypaddler duckypaddler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post
Whoa

First off I live in Seymour, I grew up in NC then Southern Jersey and moved to Maine after college.

I also lived a few years in South Jersey as a kid and a large part of my family on my fathers side are from Maine. So welcome to this fourm. If your not a troll, then please use some more disgretion in the future.

MY POINT was that killing everything in a stream also kills the genetics of the remaining stock of ORIGINAL BROOK TROUT.... a genetically pure native brook trout can not be replaced with same.

Here is where your ignorance is showing. You really should get more educated before reaching such drastic conclusions (man of science right?). Fish were shocked, and native brookies weren't killed (well except from some smart bears that got some). And to respond to earlier comment about genetics, yes they are studied (Kenny a graduate student working for the park from Kansas seems to know more than I could comprehend), and while park Brookies do have some genetic differences, it hasn't caused any major problems. All brookies were chosen by simillar streams at similar elevations and all were true genetic Souther App Brook trout

My second point is that replacing a good fishery with a marginal fishery in a place that didn't have any pure genetically original fish may not be a good idea when you are killing all the other lifeforms in the stream.

Ok then what is your answer for Sam's creek? Even Casada bows down on this one. You really need to understand "poisons" are different. Your prior comparisons to DDT and Rotenone are silly. As far as killing a good fishery. Are you really saying there aren't plenty of Rainbow streams in the Smokies? And since you only like Browns on tailwaters why do you even care?

After all this work.... what has been gained? Many folks say that closing all these streams for years never increased the population of brook trout.... so a fishery was lost for many years based on conjecture now that time has passed and the studies are finished or continuing.

The stream will only be closed a short time. The populations are doing great. You really need the facts, many of which are easily obtained on the park's website. A great, easily accessable Brookie stream should be gained soon enough

There is a big difference between a native brook trout and an imported brook trout and some waters will never support either very well due to the lasting effects of pollution, forestry, erosion pH etc.... NO MATTER HOW BADLY YOU WANT. You are acting like they stocked non-natives or something.

And yes while "some waters" won't support either - Lynn Camp is a dream come true - so again - get the facts

Not trying to stir the pot; Ooh come on ...... really? only questioning the science.(feel free to do that. If you have a real and not perceived in your head from ignorance about the restoration)
Ooh and your argument for stopping fishing or creeling limits on Brookies was studied, and fishing was found to have little to no effect, hence the opening of all streams.
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