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  #21  
Old 01-13-2011, 01:32 PM
Crockett Crockett is offline
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Corbo I think the confusion stems from the fact that not many folks in Seymour list their location as Rome, Maine. Maybe you are so new to the area you just haven't had time to change the location yet in your profile. Also to put it bluntly East TN along with much of the South has changed a lot over the last couple of decades. We are overrun with Northerners who come down here because we have lower taxes and more freedom. Yet despite the fact that we seem to be doing things right, which is the reason they come down here in the first place, they almost always seem to think they know better and things were done better up north.

Just my opinion no disrespect to you personally I am sure if we met out on the water we would get along fine. Seriously we should go fishing sometime. I used to live in Seymour so we have that in common. My ancestors all fought for the Union yet lived in Hawkins County (East TN). East TN was a very strong Union area. Middle and West were the rebs. You can still see that delineation today in that East TN is strong Republican whereas Middle and West is Democrat.
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Last edited by Crockett; 01-14-2011 at 11:14 AM..
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  #22  
Old 01-13-2011, 03:16 PM
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jeffnles1 jeffnles1 is offline
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Guys,
In reading through these posts again, I don't think the guy meant any insult on us Southerners.

Like many of us did when this was being discussed a year or two ago, he questioned the logic of using a poision to kill all fish (and most probably other much other life as well) in a healthy stream to restock the natives. Yes, in this case, the fish stocked are not imports but fish captured from adjoining streams in the same watershed. While they may not be an exact match for the minute genetic differences they are, I'm sure, pretty darn close.

My question then and now is what else was killed in Lynn Camp Prong in order to reintroduce the brook trout and was it worth it?

I don't claim to have the answers, just questions. Time will eventually tell the story.

Nowever, I really didn't think the original poster was trying to slam southerners.

Jeff
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  #23  
Old 01-13-2011, 05:22 PM
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NDuncan NDuncan is offline
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Here's an interesting breakdown about the genetics of particular strains of specks in some of the streams of the park...(If i get too technical, I apologize)

Not surprisingly, the Sam's Creek and Starkey Creek are the same pure southern strain. There are two distinct Southern strain populations in Silers creek (I guess two extended families cohabitate in this stream, but want very little to do with each other breeding wise) And a stream geographically located between these two, Meigs creek- has a pure strain in it as well, however these are a Northern strain, and the one stream in the park that was surveyed in this particular study that didn't have any southern strain specks detected in the waters.

All of the NC park streams surveyed that had northern strain specks hybridized with one or more population of southern specks in varying degrees of hybridization. What was interesting, is the correlation between the time passed since the last recorded stocking, and degree of genetic hybridization. The streams that had most recently been stocked with Northern Strain specks showed the highest degree of northern genes in the hybrids. The ones that have had several more generations of reproductions since the last stocking, have the least degree of northern genes in the hybrids, suggesting that the native southern genes are better adapted to the climate and that there is some degree of genetic preference against the northern genes and their hybrids, so that over time, the hybrids are becoming more like the native genetically. It doesn't appear that amount of stocking has any correlation to the degree of hybridization.

The one very weird standout that doesn't fit with any of the studies hypotheses is Beech Flats prong. While it was one the most heavily stocked streams of the ones surveyed and one of the more recently stocked streams that were surveyed, it has the lowest genetic proportion of the marker used to differentiate the two strains and no northern strain mitochondrial dna (DNA that is only passed maternally, and is used to trace the maternal lineage of the fish, thus identify which northern strain it is hybridized with as well differentiate between distinct populations of fish). So why the native specks didn't hybridize with the stockers in this stream as much as any of the others, despite a very high opportunity to do so is kind of a mystery. There are three distinct southern populations in this stream as well. Maybe these families are more or less closed societies who apparently can out breed and out compete the stockers and want very little to do with breeding with them.

All in all, the study found 12 genetic populations of southern specks, and 4 genetic populations of northern specks (As well as the hybrids of these)
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  #24  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:36 PM
Corbo Corbo is offline
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I spose that an explanation of what happened many years ago in Maine is in order.

Unfortunately many ponds and streams going to and from were polluted by the "bucket brigade" that introduced small mouthed bass and sunfish to their favorite native genetically pure never stocked pond "to enhance their fishing opportunity.

The State responded by using rotenone to kill the entire pond of all fish; sometimes multiple applications THEN they re-stocked with hatchery brookies. Over time they found these hatchery fish were poorly suited and did poorly.

The State's next response was to isolate pure brookies in another pond and propagate them in a hatchery for use in "re-claimed" ponds... The results were mixed.

Years went bye and the biologists with financial grants from TU "bring back the natives program" funded with the Cold water conservation fund started looking at genetics on a pond by pond basis... the studies were interesting because there were often HUGE genetic differences in populations of pure original fish in waters that were very close to one another.

Consideration was then given to the water bodies.... Most people then speculated that original pure stocks had ADAPTED to their particular watershed and that is why they often did not do well when used to re-polutate a water body that had been re-claimed.

This is why I cherish the genetic of the fish that inhabit a very particular piece of river, stream or pond.

I am aware that studies here have shown no huge increase in the number of brookies in several places even after the fishing was closed for many years. When I suggested a water be closed to protect a genetically unique brook trout it would be when few of these gems remained.

What happened in Maine was a long learning curve marked by years of trial & error and good intentions. After considering what had been poisoned into extinction fisheries personel became more careful when they applied poison.

I learned to fish and love rivers as a boy on the NEW RIVER in North Carolina; I moved to Maine 25 years ago because there was great trout fishing and left because it's just too ****ed liberal for me.

We didn't move here to change anything but to celebrate the fact that our personal values totally reflect those of the people here in East TN.

I'd be honored to fish with any of you but I'm physically incapable of fishing hike in streams or places full of huge boulders due to a serious foot injury 20 years ago.

Fact is I have osteomylitus in my right foot thanks to an ARROGANT MAINE doctor who repaired it last December. This december a very nice and extremely talented TN doctor save it.... I have an enormous hole in my foot and I'm attached to a 24/7 antibiotic until mid-march and even then I may still lose the ****ed foot.

The ONLY reason I'm trying to save it is so I can wade fish.

Just a thought on "fisheries management"..... might it be prudent to make it a law that all rainbows and browns in certain waters be creeled upon catch?
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  #25  
Old 01-13-2011, 10:32 PM
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Grannyknot Grannyknot is offline
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Well, thanks for your opinions and insight, but it's probably useless to talk about it any further, as whats done is done, and probably will never be done again considering the debacle they encountered during sampling last year. Apparently a few other people share your opinions.

All I know is, when they open it to fishing, they better plan on making a parking lot out of wilkinson ridge, because an already crowded parking area is going to get a lot worse.
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  #26  
Old 01-14-2011, 12:01 AM
Corbo Corbo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NDuncan View Post
Just to clear up some of your assumptions:

As a scientist with access to a large number of scientific journals, I can tell you definitively that the genetics of specks across MANY, MANY watersheds in the park have been studied, documented, and published over the past 30-40 years. Based on your original comments, that may come as a surprise to you, that we down in the south would also be 'blessed' with such scientific research of that extent and quality like they do up north.

What might all be stockers anyway? Are you now making the leap from 'restoring specks is irresponsible' (which may be arguable, but probably better approached in more reasonable fashion that calling everyone a bunch of idiots) to 'all the specks in the park might be stockers anyway'?

My main is issue with you is not the questions you pose, but the way you pose them. You are jumping to conclusions about various aspects of the program that based totally on your own assumptions and not in any way shape or form the reality of the situation. The advice given by others to do some research is a good one- especially if you plan on announcing your point of view from such a high horse.

Nduncan: For the record I called nobody an "idiot" & if you read my post of how "restoring brook trout waters in Maine" transpired you would understand that I'm not riding a high horse.... Maine did things wrong for years before getting anything right.

So let me disrespect Mainers and tell you they are about the most selfish & inconsderate, worthless & lazy, disrespectful and poorly valued B-tards on the planet and the fisheries people totally inept. I have nothing but comtempt for New Englanders which I am not. Oh and the fishing sucks now do to poor management.

Thanks all for an interesting discussion
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  #27  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:05 AM
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duckypaddler duckypaddler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post
So let me disrespect Mainers and tell you they are about the most selfish & inconsderate, worthless & lazy, disrespectful and poorly valued B-tards on the planet and the fisheries people totally inept. I have nothing but comtempt for New Englanders which I am not. Oh and the fishing sucks now do to poor management.

Thanks all for an interesting discussion
First you start off with an ignorant rant about fishing and then somehow turn it into horrible rant about New Englanders I now totally agree with the earlier poster and let me say: YOU'RE A REAL ***! You seem to be full of anger and hate and seem to displace your emotions and make you draw irrational conclusions. Just because something gets screwed up in Maine (which has tons of GREAT fishing), has absolutely nothing to do with the restoration effort here.

I have always found the people in rural Maine to have similar values as East TN. And while I have done my best on this board to keep an open mind, and to honestly try to hear what others are saying (especially when they disagree with me), but with you sir I am done. Every time someone politely tries to educate you, you just turn your anger in a new direction.

Whether your a bitter old man or a troll, you don't need to posting on this board, and I hope Paula will pull your RANTS as they seem less than fishing related.

On the other hand, I am really impressed by my fellow board members, which try again, again, and again to help this fool.
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  #28  
Old 01-14-2011, 09:45 AM
tennswede tennswede is offline
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Duckypaddler,

Amen to that, thanks for showing some civility and class. No wonder this world is the way it is. I am so tired of this. I hear it all the times as an immigrant. I'm an american citizen but I still feel the crudeness from certain individuals. I'm not a victim but I'm tired of uneducated generalizations and accusations. If you are a Swede, Finn, Greek or an Alien from Mars, it doesn't matter, you can never safely assume that one ethnic group or people act as a homogenouos group. Not all Swedes are the same, not all Tennesseans are the same. Why is this so hard for some people to grasp? Also, for your information and all others out there that only think they are right and their political views are the only ones that matter. The other side think your views are as wacky as anyone's. It's just politics, it won't have all the answers and it will not solve all problems. This family values thing is another oxymoron. My family values might be complete opposite of yours. Why are mine wrong and yours right? Enough of this, this is a fishing forum and used to be the best. It is now deteriorating in to a mudslinging political rant and I know that I don 't come here to read about someone thinkging they are right and everyone else is wrong. Why can't we leave this to the proper boards?

Last edited by tennswede; 01-14-2011 at 11:01 AM.. Reason: Added clarification.
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  #29  
Old 01-14-2011, 11:44 AM
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NDuncan NDuncan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corbo View Post
Nduncan: For the record I called nobody an "idiot" & if you read my post of how "restoring brook trout waters in Maine" transpired you would understand that I'm not riding a high horse.... Maine did things wrong for years before getting anything right.

So let me disrespect Mainers and tell you they are about the most selfish & inconsderate, worthless & lazy, disrespectful and poorly valued B-tards on the planet and the fisheries people totally inept. I have nothing but comtempt for New Englanders which I am not. Oh and the fishing sucks now do to poor management.

Thanks all for an interesting discussion
If you had read my post that followed that, I apologized for being over-defensive based on my perception of your tone in your original posts. And since then, I moved on, haven't brought up anything about the whole stupid 'northerners vs southerners' argument to salvage the point of this thread, which I thought was a discussion of the methods, precautions, research, etc that was done in the parks restoration program. I keep trying to turn the subject back to your original questions, I provided data about the studies that were done on the genetics of the park's trout. I don't know why, if you truly want to discuss this, you keep trying to take the conversation back to this initial side-tracked waste of time geographical argument.

So if you still don't see my other post, I apologize for jumping to conclusions regarding the tone your posts.

I hope your foot gets better.
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  #30  
Old 01-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Streamhound Streamhound is offline
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NDuncan
Just a spectator but I enjoyed your data on the genetics of the trout in the park.
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