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  #31  
Old 09-20-2011, 10:31 AM
Rodonthefly Rodonthefly is offline
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I'm all for a nominal fee and more stringent requirements to be a guide. NC charges a nominal guide fee,. The real cost are acquiring the permits to fish National Parks and Forest, liability insurance, and the required training such as first aid and cpr. I have long been an advocate of these requirements and will not fish with a guide who isn't legit. Always ask before you book a trip, some pirate could take you out and get you killed or seriously injured and you wouldn't have any means of paying your hospital or doctor bills, let alone compensation to your family for your life. Kinda hard to get any money out of someone who lives in an old school bus and drives a 15 year old pick up and has $11. 32 in his bank account
I disagree with this comment to say the least,

My boss and his family hired the same boat over the past 10 years, to go tuna fishing. They pay big money to go with the same crew year in and year out. This past Easter the boat they were on, ran aground while leaving the inlet. My bosses brother broke his back. This outfit has not once offered to help in anyway, they have guide and captian license. Those sure as **** didn't help in my bosses case.

You might find that some of the finer folks in this world are those, who set them selfs aside and do what ever they can to help others out insurance or not, license or not.

Being a guide is not about making money, in most guides eyes, if it was we all would be better off working at Walmart. What little money, I make most of the time gos back into fly fishing or some other hobby I have.

Guiding is enjoyable, but offten a pain in the ***! It is hard work, and every cent is earned.

To me if I was picking a guide it sure as ****, wouldn't have anything to do with what he drove, where he lives. Might want to think about that, next time you hire a guide.

As far as a guide willing to help in case of accident, most guides I know have enough common since not to put the clientes in dangers way, and the client should have the common since as well. I have my certs in CPR and first Aid.

So if you were to hire me and have a heart attack after landing the fish of your life time, getting struck by lighting wouldn't happen because I have the common since to not be on the water holding a lighting rod during a storm in the first place. But if it were to happen and I was to be stuck in a civil suite, sorry all your gonna get is a old dodge truck, a old drift boat, a few rods, and $11.32

Now my thoughts on the "guide license", is the same as others, if that money is going to go back into the river, then I'm all for it, i know TWRa well enough to know it won't happen.
Any why not charge the folks who keep the fish the same prices of the fresh fish prices on the market.
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  #32  
Old 09-20-2011, 11:22 AM
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Rodonthefly,
I'm sorry Rod, I'm not trying to stir anything up. Did you read the post I made after that one you quoted? The point I am trying to make is the license fee would be a good way to keep track of all of these so called "guides". Make it mandatory that you have insurance and the proper permits to obtain the guide licenses. I know I worked for years as a general contractor. I had to carry general liability and workmen's compensation policies out the yeng yang. That was a cost of doing business.

If I were you're boss, I would have already hired a lawyer. The boat captain should have insurance, that's where the claim would be initially made. Only in the event the boat captain does not have insurance and litigation were to move onto civil court would the guides assets become important. Most are not wealthy, so there in lies the importance of insurance. A guides personnel wealth has nothing to do with his ability to guide. It does however make insurance coverage important.

The US Park Service and the National Forest require permits to conduct fly fishing guide business. I bet in NC about a 1/3 of the guides fishing the National Forest do not have the proper permits or insurance. Last time I checked, you can get a guides licenses in NC for about $10.
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  #33  
Old 09-20-2011, 11:35 AM
Knothead Knothead is offline
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Someone might want to research what is required for guiding for big game hunts in the western states and on saltwater. It goes beyond just paying a fee for a license.
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  #34  
Old 09-20-2011, 12:02 PM
white95v6 white95v6 is offline
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Someone might want to research what is required for guiding for big game hunts in the western states and on saltwater. It goes beyond just paying a fee for a license.
like the TWRA
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  #35  
Old 09-20-2011, 02:19 PM
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In theory, I don't actually have a huge problem with the guide license, but I DO have a problem specifically targeting trout guides. What concerns me is that they will continue to add more licenses and fees which will always hurt the little guy. I've summarized my thoughts over on my blog for anyone that is interested...
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  #36  
Old 09-20-2011, 04:25 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Waterwolf,
I think I may not have made myself clear. I've know a lot of people over the years that have called themselves "guides" and had neither insurance nor the proper permits to be conducting business in the National Park nor the National Forest.

There's nothing wrong with a 15 year old pick up, mine is only 13/14, I was using that simply as an example of the lack of assets that some have. If a situation were to arise that came to a civil lawsuit there might be very little in the way of assets.

It's not a guides fault if I have a heart attack, but it would be nice to know that a guide could offer you some help if you did have one, or some other type of accident, like a lighting strike, or drowning.

I'm about as conservative as they come, and believe me, I wouldn't have much trouble picking out a guide, or knowing the warning signs of one to avoid. I know guiding is hard work, and a good one earns every cent he makes.
When I hire a guide my only concern is whether they are able to put me on fish or game. If I need a doctor I will hire a doctor.

I could just easily get struck by lightning, have a heart attack or drown while fishing with one of my buddies and they certainly don't have the knowledge or abilities you desire in a guide.

Anytime you go into the outdoors you are taking a risk. Whether you are with friends, guide, or alone.
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  #37  
Old 09-20-2011, 09:42 PM
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WW,
I agree, putting me on fish or game is #1. The first aid and CPR are not really of that much concern to me. The only reason I mention them is because some places like National Parks require guides to have that training. I was a medic with the 2nd Marine Division in Vietnam, so I think between my medical and survival training I think I could handle most situations. I still want my guide to be insured and have the proper permits. It's not fair to the professional guides out there trying to make a living that others are short cutting the system. it's kinda like people that drive without a licenses or insurance. BTW, I think every state should require hunting and fishing guides to be licensed.

Sorry for all the rambling, I know this kinda got off track of the original purpose of the thread.
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Last edited by flyman; 09-20-2011 at 10:04 PM.. Reason: 42
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  #38  
Old 09-20-2011, 10:38 PM
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A lot of good points on this topic already.

I've been working as a guide now for close to ten years. I think Mike said it best when he compared guiding to farming. If your in it, your "all in". Some years you can do ok for yourself, some years you really have to get creative with cooking ramen noodles.

There's a whole lot more that goes into a guided fishing trip then the distance from the put in to the take out. Hours of phone calls, emails, planning, preparing gear, prepping lunches, arranging shuttles, playing meteorologist, monitoring water flows, and all the costs involved.

Being a legit guide isn't cheap. And by legit, I mean playing by the rules set forth by the managing agencies. In all honesty, the current rules here in Tennessee are not bad at all from the guides wallet point of view. Pretty much just by a fishing license and trout stamp.

I also guide in KY. Now I incur some hefty fees when I guide in KY. KY requires out of state guides to purchase a $400 guide license. As a guide who obtains his total income from guiding.......that's pretty much two trips you need to work just to break even. I hate paying $400 but can accept it because I justify it in my head as carrying my weight as I use the resource. And to be honest, I've been checked about a dozen times there over the past few years......so I felt like maybe my contribution was helping with enforcement etc. In addition, they also require a Coast Guard OUPV Captains License. Personally, I think this is a total crock.....There was not one single thing in all of the books and test I took that had anything to do with guiding freshwater rivers. But, they said I had to have it so.......I got one. A huge expense.

On the other front. I've been very lucky over the years to have never had a serious injury on a fishing trip. I've seen many other guides and casual floaters end up in deadly situations and with bad injuries. Fly fishing, or maybe more specifically float fishing, falls into the category of adventure activities, and often times.....these adventures carry risk. A guide does his best to insure safety at all times...but let's face it....sometimes $h1t happens. I think if your willing to call yourself a guide you've got to be willing to accept that these risks cannot all be controlled, and protect yourself with liability insurance as well as liability waivers.

Over the years, I've found myself in situations where I had to perform cpr and more first aid then I ever wanted to. Mostly to inner tubers and folks who shouldn't have been rafting. But once, I had a client stop breathing after lunch. His wife said "Oh my, it's his heart again". I didn't feel a pulse, and instantly crapped my pants. I followed the criteria for cpr at the time....and by some miracle of God....after 45 seconds...he started coughing and slowly regained consciousness. I was scared to death. But I had some training for the situation and for that I'm thankful that I was required to have cpr first aid by the USFS.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing a guide license that required liability and cpr first aid cert. As far as the fees go....I don't suppose I mind paying my part for using the resource. I'd love to see a TWRA agent at every boat ramp, giant fish in every puddle I fish etc....but I don't know how well monies raised would help. As others have mentioned...I really don't know how in the world such a license would help. Enforcing it would almost be impossible and the only people buying them would be the legit guides. I honestly think the rest who would guide without insurance and proper certifications would just keep guiding without them.

I know a lot of this issue stems from NE TN and luckily, I don't pull oars for pay up that way very often. Our local rivers, have never seemed overwhelmed with guides or out of state guides. Most of the guides I see are folks who have been at it for a long time and do a good job of representing what a "guide" should be. The few bad apples I've seen over the years don't seem to make it long, or just guide here on occasion I suppose.

It's a tough issue for sure.
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  #39  
Old 09-20-2011, 11:04 PM
waterwolf waterwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by flyman View Post
WW,
I agree, putting me on fish or game is #1. The first aid and CPR are not really of that much concern to me. The only reason I mention them is because some places like National Parks require guides to have that training. I was a medic with the 2nd Marine Division in Vietnam, so I think between my medical and survival training I think I could handle most situations. I still want my guide to be insured and have the proper permits. It's not fair to the professional guides out there trying to make a living that others are short cutting the system. it's kinda like people that drive without a licenses or insurance. BTW, I think every state should require hunting and fishing guides to be licensed.

Sorry for all the rambling, I know this kinda got off track of the original purpose of the thread.
I can agree with you here, I think guides should be insured for the off hand chance something really bad happens. It protects the guide and the client.

I personally feel guides should know basic first aid, not required by the govt, but should be able to stitch someone up if necessary.

I also have no issue with guides having to purchase a fishing license just like the rest of the fisherman. However, we all do, because we fish when we aren't guiding.

Federal parks are a different story, and that really isn't part of this discussion IMO.

Easy solution for TWRA is to eliminate stocking marginal waters which can't support trout annually. Enforce current regulations, and the revenues collected from violations could easily fund the trout programs in this state.

Very simple 2 step solution, and the second part should be done now, but as we all know it certainly is not. TWRA has epically failed at one of their primary responsibilities.
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  #40  
Old 09-21-2011, 07:45 AM
Rodonthefly Rodonthefly is offline
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Easy solution for TWRA is to eliminate stocking marginal waters which can't support trout annually. Enforce current regulations, and the revenues collected from violations could easily fund the trout programs in this state.

Very simple 2 step solution, and the second part should be done now, but as we all know it certainly is not. TWRA has epically failed at one of their primary responsibilities.
That's the God's honest truth! TWRA is a joke, there's no ifs ands or buts about it.

As many years as I have fished the Clinch I have been checked 2 times by the TWRA. When asked for my license and stamp. I made the smart a$$ remark sure I'll show it to you, I'm glad to see my tax dollars and license money hard at work, there needs to be more of it!
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