TN Tailwater Guide License

[br549]

First, let me say that I am not a guide. I have never used one in Tennessee. In my opinion, I think this guide tax is not about revenue generation for trout hatcheries, increased enforcement or other means to protect a resource (an artificial resource when we speak of tailwater trout). The amount of money estimated that this fee will generate is 65,000. The cost of implementing and maintaining the guide license will probably cost 65,000 in the case of a government agency. My little company could make 65,000 go a long ways, but I doubt the coldwater crew at TWRA could make it buy waders and winter coats. Lets be honest, it is only about limiting out of state guides. Let's just say it. We already have outrageous out of state fees to come fish here. And the management of our coldwater fisheries or wildlife in general pales in comparison to our neighbors Arkansas and Kentucky.

[Lumber_Jack]

Originally Posted by waterwolf

I just read a couple more of the "yes" responses, and the common theme is that none of the yes votes have ever guided, and seemingly don't know a lot about the industry or the challenges of making it work.

I also wonder how many folks know guides or have ever been guided, because it seems as if there is this tainted few of a guides life, or how a guide uses the resource.

It is really stunning to se the all out war being waged on businesses in this country now, it is coming from all angles....feds, states, and even citizens.

It seems that anyone who runs their own business, and tries to make a buck is demonized, and taxed to oblivion.

I do not understand the dramatic shift in views of Americans, but this used to be a country where we believed in smaller government, less regulation, free markets, and more freedoms.

Honestly, this whole topic makes my skin crawl, and that it has trickled down to fishing is really freaking scary.

My questions is, once you open this door to rampant taxation, what comes next? Think about it....

We are way beyond small government and no taxes. Without the government and their program there would be no trout to catch in the first place. And without TWRA, TVA, and USFWS to support the fisheries they would be fished out in no time.

At some point we have to make a choice to either pay more or let it dissipate into a river with no fish. If we don't pay more who is going to. The government, wait no, we said we wanted small government so who is left. This is not a tax, it's a use fee. If you don't use it you don't pay the fee.

You are correct in that I am not a guide, but I did have a very candid conversation with one yesterday, and that was the points I conveyed.

I don't think it's a slippery slope to ask those who guide to buy a license. I'm a forester, if I want to practice in the stated on NC I have to pay a license fee, contractors pay a license fee. It's not the end of fishing/guiding as a profession.

[Mike_Anderson]

Lets say you make your living cutting pines while the majority of lumber jacks make their living cutting Hardwoods. Suddenly, one day outa nowhere, only the people who cut pines are selected to pay a new fee and pass a whole new set of regulations. The hardwood cutters aren't required to pay this new fee or pass the regulations at all. This fee in the grand scheme of things does absolutely nothing to help your buisness or the lands you work on to grow and prosper as it will be consumed by administration of the new fee. This fee was lobbied for and implemented by a big pine corporation who would like to see lumber jacks who only cut pines forced out of the profession so that they can cut your lands and receive the profit.

Would you think that was fair?

[Lumber_Jack]

Originally Posted by Mike_Anderson

Lets say you make your living cutting pines while the majority of lumber jacks make their living cutting Hardwoods. Suddenly, one day outa nowhere, only the people who cut pines are selected to pay a new fee and pass a whole new set of regulations. The hardwood cutters aren't required to pay this new fee or pass the regulations at all. This fee in the grand scheme of things does absolutely nothing to help your buisness or the lands you work on to grow and prosper as it will be consumed by administration of the new fee. This fee was lobbied for and implemented by a big pine corporation who would like to see lumber jacks who only cut pines forced out of the profession so that they can cut your lands and receive the profit.

Would you think that was fair?

If it promoted the replanting of pines for me to cut in the future, while was significantly higher for out-of-state loggers to help me secure more contracts...then yes.

I get you're point about other guides for other species not paying the fee, I understand. But for me to say a fee is bad because it's not fair, doesn't seem like a valid reason.

I understand the fees won't accumulate to a large dollar amount but I can't imagine that a $200/year fee is going to cripple a guide. If it is you're on the verge of starving already.

PS full disclosure: I'm a forester not a logger, the username is a joke because that's what everyone thinks when I tell them I'm a forester.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this topic, good thing is I'm not in charge of making decisions that affect anything remotely important.

[Mike_Anderson]

Well, lumber jack just sounds so much cooler too. No worries, it's just a forum for sharing opinions. I don't expect everyone to agree and I most certainly don't have any ill will against the folks who are for it. I see their points as well. I just think it should be all or none.

[David Knapp]

Originally Posted by cockeye valdez

The money I pay for a license and trout stamp are subsidizing the income of guides. That is a fact, I don't mind some of it because I think the presence of guides on the river indicate that the sport is active and I use guides from time to time. I think a reasonable amount say $1000 per year is acceptable. General contractors pay fees, many other self employed professions do the same. Professional guides should do the same.

I have used guides, here and out west. I understand the value they add to to experience of fly fishing. I understand it is a difficult profession, so are many other professions. You chose it, now do something to ensure your profession. Form a professional organization and be a voice for the river.

As I have said I am in favor of raising the cost of a trout stamp. Not sure at what amount it discourages sportsman that it is detrimental to the sport but just under that amount.

Raising fees is great for people that have lots of discretionary spending money. How about the rest of us? If the goal is to eliminate other fishermen/guides (competition) then these fees are spot on. That just seems slightly selfish though... If costs go up much, I will go to spending ALL my fishing time in the Smokies or on non-stocked streams...

[cockeye valdez]

First, David thank you for ending your post as you do. "Follow me..." It is a tremendous witness and puts into perspective this discussion.

Second, I am not in favor of raising the fees to the point that only the privileged can participate. This is what happened in Britain, however there is an amount that would acceptable.

We just have to do a better job of caring for our natural resources and it cost money to do it. We've lived on the cheap and are reaping the harvest.

[Rodonthefly]

[QUOTE=cockeye valdez;96181 We just have to do a better job of caring for our natural resources and it cost money to do it. We've lived on the cheap and are reaping the harvest.[/QUOTE]

Stop the bastards from taking bucketts of trout out of the river! Bottom line. if they can't get better about enforcing this, then you can kiss our tailwater fishing good bye! catch and Release or pay extra to keep fish! That will save the resources plus give more money to the ****ed TWRA!

[Realtyman]

I can buy a nonresident fishing guide license in Arkansas for $100 online or over the phone. No certification or training required. No first aid or cpr training, and no ridiculous background check. Who came up with $300 for resident and $1,000 for nonresident in TN? What are these numbers based on?

The discussion going on at commission meetings is purely motivated by greed and the love of money, which often occurs anytime the state gets involved. This has nothing to do with protecting or enhancing our fisheries.

[TnTodd]

Originally Posted by Realtyman

Who came up with $300 for resident and $1,000 for nonresident in TN? What are these numbers based on?

Not to be nit-picking, but, It is actually $200 resident, $1,000 non-resident. Reason being solely that is the current cost of a Tennessee Commercial fishing license.


One erroneous thing that keeps popping up is that guides are depleting the resource. Every guide I know catches and releases unless it looks like the fish is going to die. On the other hand, your average fisherman takes home much of what he/she catches. Which is fine by me since it is legal.

When you look at the bigger picture though, the problem with our fishery is just like the problem with EVERY other government run entity. It is run by people incapable of basic math.

The average cost for EACH trout released in Tennessee is about $3. A trout stamp is $18. The creel limit for many of thesee affected waters is 7 fish per day.

So, when a fisherman goes out and catches and keeps his limit of 7 fish, which happens frequently, the TWRA has aldeady LOST $3 in revenue. PLUS they continue to loose an ADDITIONAL $3 for each fish that person catches and keeps for the rest of the life of the trout stamp. ONLY a government agency would be stupid enough to operate under a business model like this.

As Bill Reeves the former TWRA Chief of Fisheries once so ignorantly said, "we are turning money into fish".