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  #91  
Old 02-05-2007, 08:39 PM
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RuningWolf RuningWolf is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Prince is a wasted talent IMO, his ego got in the way of his music

I watched all the SB as I wanted Peyton to win one. I generally don’t like most pro sports, too much I and not enough we

Been trying to catch up with a friend of mine who was in the band I use to do some work for. He is doing some solo acoustic gigs, who knows I might get crazy and play a few songs with him one night if I go. No I won’t tell you because you or that boo headed friend of yours might bring some rotten tomatoes
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  #92  
Old 02-05-2007, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Lets see- Purple Rain and Purple Haze. *Quiet a bit of simularity in the "Purple" thing. *That's like comparing the Mama's and Papa's to Zepplin! O yaaa, I am big fans of all the above, aahum, except maybe Prince. * * *Looks like we've spun some of the same vinyl and 8-tracks... *(except Prince! ) *Nothing like a little Hendrix "Star Spangled Banner" at about 1000 decibles! *Can ya hear me now?

* *Mark....

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  #93  
Old 02-05-2007, 09:32 PM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

I still spin some vinyl. I have a linear-tracking (SP) turntable that tracks about ¼ -1/8 of a gram as a reult it does very little damage. Back when I still could hear adequately to me there was a difference in sound quality from vinyl to CD with the vinyl having more true reproduction. *

I never liked 8 tracks to many tapes got ate by the players.

The unleaded tour by Paige and Plant IMO was awesome. I did not care that they did not play Stairway to heaven (I am not a big zep fan either) .

Star Spangled Banner, there was a few mornings it played at the crack of dawn right after some other morning manic music as Grace like to say.

Bet you likes Deep Purple. If so have you ever listened to Blackmore’s Night?

Ritchie is now married and does a acoustic rock version of a lot of renaissance and folk music from days of yore, and she can sing
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  #94  
Old 02-05-2007, 10:46 PM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Still got a box of vinyl at my parents that I haven't seen since my teens.

Wish I had all the $ that I spent on 8-tracks.

A while after Ritchie departed from Deep Purple and formed "Rainbow" I lost interest in both for some reason " But that did get me interested in "Dio." Wow, what a blast from the past! The 70's and 80's? What a rock revolution!
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  #95  
Old 02-06-2007, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Dry Fly

My favorite era was the 60’s through the mid 70’s. The music to me kind of died with the advent of disco. There is still some good music, but not as much. I think a lot of the Country Music of today is reminiscent of some of the Southern Country Rock of the 70’s and 80’s.

I still have close to 1000 LPs, some have never been put on CD, some are collectables, some are just favorites. I will not count the CD’s I replaced a lot of albums with. I will not go to MP3’s there is a drop off that I can still hear.

We could probably start a long thread on great *riffs, great album sides,*unknown artist who where super, favorite albums, songs, etc. However some may not appreciate it. *

What about it Bryon want to start a music room?

I go to some guitar sites and come across a lot of good videos or old concerts you can listen to
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  #96  
Old 02-06-2007, 12:55 AM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

TnGlen pt 1

”Why does it seem that the only person's opinion on here that is of any value to anyone is yours? “

Let’s see. Where exactly have I placed any value? I have discussed issues and stated my opinion giving some of my logic and some data both observed and from TWRA. A effort to distinguish between the two has been attempted as well. Some of my arguments are based on TWRA’s data and is readily available for you or anyone else to check out.


“ I don't mean this in a malicious way, I am just curious why you seem to disagree with nearly everyone's statements on a given issue and feel the need to back your opinions up with a bunch of invalid data.


See above. TWRA’s is invalid?!?!?!.

“1. *I have fished the Clinch approximately 20 days in the last year and approximately 20 days the year before that. *I do not have the luxury of being there during the week. *I have not seen a SINGLE TWRA officer in all of those trips nor have I seen a TWRA truck with an officer in it. *That is a FACT, not an opinion. *Begin limiting your visits to Saturdays or Sundays every couple of weeks and I think that you will see larger crowds and NO TWRA officers. “

I fish some on the weekends as well. My wife is not retired and loves to fish. The specific instants I mentioned occurred on the weekends. I could give you names of some of those present when it occurred. I do have two recent photographs with the month and date stamp of TWRA officers approximately 100 ft upstream from the boat launch at Millers Island. As a lot of times on weekends we go to the range at Norris to shoot we drive by the Millers Island access and have observed officers in the vicinity. They drive through regularly and only stay for a few minutes. They also park out of view and glass areas as well as sometimes God forbid go out undercover. If you want to get a idea of how many citations are given in a certain year I am sure Brian Ripley at 1-800-332-0900 can either give you the stats or tell you who can.

However if all you are doing is watching for TWRA to come in the parking lot maybe that is why you are having problems catching fish? You are also fishing in a high traffic area which spooks them as well. To move on to more productive waters, you loose most of your view of the parking lots so how do you now who drove through or parked there for a few minutes?


”2. Culling is NOT illegal. *The regs recommend that you do not cull, they do not state that it is illegal. *If I am wrong in this, please quote me the page number to read and I will publicly apologize. “

Lets see you have 7 trout on your stringer you are still fishing for trout. You catch one you are one over your limit. What is that violation? You have 7 trout on your stringer you let one go it swims off you catch another you are legal. You have 7 trout on your stinger you let a dead one float off you are probably busted if you keep fishing.

”3. When I referenced a neighbor talking about how many fish he kills in a day and you said report him to TWRA. *What am I supposed to tell them? *He is perfectly within his rights and the law to bait fish, gut hook, and release as many fish as he wants to. *Far be it for me to limit his rights or access to this wasteful activity.”

The implication I got was he is probably doing something illegal. What can they do? They can watch out for him when he is fishing by keying on such things as his vehicle and general description, then give him more than a quick once over. I have seen this done and people busted. If he is doing nothing illegal you have no legitimate gripe. * *


”4. You do not have to have a trout stamp to fish in trout waters as you do a big game stamp in the "deer woods". *The regs state that you have to have a stamp if you are "fishing for trout". *This is a gross error on TWRA's part and should be fixed by specifying geographical areas. *There is NO mention of trout waters or even where trout waters are. *Trout live all the way past Melton Hill dam on the Clinch. *Does this mean everyone who uses Melton Hill should have a trout stamp? *I think not. “

I am very aware of how far down trout are in Milton Hill and know of some that have shown up in Watts Bar. I am also aware that they use to be some in Norris and some of the creeks that flow in are rumored from reliable sources to have small trout populations.

The statement concerned trout waters? How many species of fish live in the Clinch? That is the one I asked about. I did not go into the details of the conversation. The rule of thumb is if they even appear to be fishing for trout no matter what the other fish population is you can be citied and some of been for not having a trout stamp, If you are fishing with a size 22 Griffins Gnat on the Clinch you have no argument you are fishing for Walleye, Strippers, or any other fish but trout. *

You catch a trout on waters with viable populations of other fish waters throwing a bass rig you have a argument if someone tries to cite you as long as you don’t keep the trout.

By the way a hunter with a shotgun or 22 in the deer woods does not have to have a deer license, you can *kill a deer with either. However if you appear to be hunting deer and some have tried to use them in this state you will get a ticket, If you have a high powered rifle or above a 22 cal handgun there is no argument you are deer hunting

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  #97  
Old 02-06-2007, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

TnGlen pt 2

“5.. *They are a government utility. *They are in business to have a positive balance sheet at the end of the year. *I haven't seen my electric bill go down because TVA makes too much money. *TVA has alot more on their plate than keeping us in fish. *The money and time that they put into conservation and specifically trout fishing resources is just to keep John Q. Public off their backs. *I come from a TVA family. *I know that of which I speak. *TVA's data is going to show just what TVA wants it to and nothing else. *Please do not kid yourself or try to convince anyone on this thread that TVA has their best interests at heart (reference the land swap in Chatanooga). “

You said “After having been associated with a couple of LARGE companies like TVA that are results based, I prefer to believe the later. *Don't kid yourself, TVA won't do anything that costs them any extra money or reduces their profits by even 0.01%.” *

I responded TVA is a non profit organization and has done much to improve the conditions of the river, for example *establishing minimum flows to help keep the river cool as well as oxygenated (Which is a large *part of the purpose of the weir dam. TVA has worked hand in hand with TU for fisheries improvements as has many other state and federal agencies, I think these meetings are held semi annual and include all Federal and state agencies that impact water quality. They have helped with the studies CRCTU are doing on the river with the loan of equipment and manpower where needed. *

The size level dropped due to TVA having to release large volumes of water for a extended period of time to prevent flooding or possible topping of the dam. The upper Clinch-Powel watershed that feeds Norris is prone to high volume rain events. I have seen Norris rise over 10 foot in one day because of some of these and that is a lot of water

Now you say “TVA is non-profit.....catch a clue” Well we can see who said what initially can’t we

As to the other on some issues you are correct about the land swap but on many others you are wrong. Excess profits use to result in adjustments to utility bills that occurred seasonally, in the recent past they have made the adjustments year to year, In the past year they actually lowered rates to reflect the excess profit. * I will not bore you with the details (Note I recently retired from TVA and fully understand a lot more than you might think. I also have worked with TVA on the Volunteer side. I have seen some of what they will do and pay for. Some of it is quite generous.)

”6. I challenge the statement that bait shops may go out of business (and that they depend on revenue from salmon eggs) if there were any regs put on 1 mile of the Clinch. *This is both unfounded and absurd. *Once again, no one here wants to limit fishing, just catch and release and not catch and kill. *I PERSONALLY (my opinion.....just like a backside, we all have one and they pretty much all stink) feel that 1 mile of artificial only would be OK. “

I said “Who is to say that bait shop or places that rely on bait who needs the money might not be put out of business if special regs. are put in place” I never said they would. Special regs for 1 mile only. Who are you kidding? Do you know the profit margin of some mom and pop places? They sale other items, food drinks, fishing line, flies, spinning rods etc. That also count in that profit margin that determines if you stay in buisness or not. They are already feeling the pinch from the big-box stores of Bass Pro and Gander Mtn. Outdoor Sports in K town just recently folded due in part to that. I was discussing other ramifications of a economic impact, speculation based some on fact. Some we don’t know how other business will be affected, not unless a business impact study is done. However it would eat into their already thin profit margin. If you don’t think it is thin go into some and be observant of the amount of stock on hand. That is usually a good indicator as the better profit margin the more you are able to afford keep in stock.

”7. *No one here is limiting access. *The only access to the river from the Clear Creek boat launch to the canoe drop at the dam is a set of wooden steps about halfway from the canoe drop to the cables. *By definition, that area of the river is already access limited, that is why IMO, it would be a good area to put in regs. *Once again, no one is asking to limit any access to anything, just catch and release and not catch and kill.”

Just upstream of the Clear Creek canoe portage is a handicap fishing spot. There is many access points on up. None of them official but if you have picked up trash up through there you might see them. I know of several also from fishing there as well in the past. I still see some number of people out there when I go through the area.

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  #98  
Old 02-06-2007, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

TnGlen pt 3

”8. A slot limit has been proposed. *As far as I know, that would be in effect for EVERYONE, not just bait fishermen. *Once again, no one is limiting catching larger fish to any one group, just helping promote catch and release, not catch and kill everything. “

I have addressed this along with many unanswered questions about it in other post. Such as how many more will be killed in this slot range due to more fish being released? How does anyone have the moral authority to impose the will of a definite minority on a definite majority? Why should the Clinch be singled out with no other available waters near by? What is going to happen the next time TVA has to have a large release over a period of time, and the river is blown out? I don’t see the need to repeat them all they are there still unanswered.

“9. But a lot of kids fish here. *Great, instead of raising them to keep everything that they take out of the water and take it home a cook it, teach them to practice good sportsmanship and conservation. *Is trout fishing the last bastion of keep everything you catch? *Must be since all other game fish have size limits. ‘

Who is to say what is the proper way to raise others kids? A lot of these kids practice good conservation and have been getting education from TVA, TWRA, TU, TDEC at some of the local schools. Some of them have even helped in events on the Clinch and in Coal Creek. I always teach keep what you will eat fishing and only kill what you will eat while hunting. Most people eat what they keep. *

”10. Alot of people are poor and fish the Clinch for food. *Pure speculation. *I challenge you to find anyone that subsistence fishes the Clinch. *If you do, chances are they are fishing from the Weir down since 90% of the water above the Weir has to be waded, and as you stated, they are poor and can't afford waders.:"

Better take a look around at some of the fisherman’s vehicles before saying they are not poor. I never said that they where subsistence fisherman. I don’t know about you but a lot of my meat growing up was fish, crappie, walleye, catfish, bass, bluegill, trout, bass etc. My wife as well if they did not kill deer, turkey or pheasant or catch fish they had no meat. Neither of our families where poor but that is the way it was.

Do you think these people are fertilizing their rose bushes with them? Go up to Briceville sometime, the back roads around Lake City and Clinton, some of the rural areas that border out towards Knoxville . area, look at the homes and the condition of them. Most of them are very poor and they enjoy fishing, taking their kids, or getting away from it all for a while. I have worked side by side with some of these people, especially in the Briceville area when events *such as the removal of all the debris that had built up around 13 bridges in 8 miles that was causing continual flooding in their community. (High water would dam up- it would give way and send a wall of high water down to the next point and build up from there and repeat it self all the way through Lake City and finally emptying a large volume of silt into the Clinch). Knock on wood there has been no flooding in that part of the watershed since then to my knowledge and it has always flooded in the past. That with other events there and with other areas gave me a very good idea about the economic condition of these people and I was a member of TU I got a earful against special regs and limiting what they could catch to eat. *I will not bore you with the details


”11. The Holston would NOT be a good place for special regs IMO. *There is less public access to that river than there is the Clinch. *I don't fish the Holston above Nances Ferry because I don't want the wheels taken off of my truck or the windows broken out, etc. “

This happens a lot at Peach Orchard and some at Millers Island and other points along the Clinch as well as other trout streams, launch ramps and acess points on the lakes.

“12. Finally, you do not need to resort to claiming FF is insulting the owners and staff of LRO. *I think that you will find that to be quite the contrary. *This I also know from personal experience. *You don't need to drop names to get a point across. *We are pretty much all Byron and Paula's customers and as such value LRO as a resource. *FF is simply as frustrated as the rest of us with continual preference given to those that wish to kill a resource instead of those that wish to conserve it for use by everyone. “

I addressed this in my reply to Bryon


“P.S. *If you read this far and didn't go to sleep, Thanks.”

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

We disagree. That does not mean I don’t understand your side. I do. I use to feel a lot the same. *If the Clinch was bigger and or there was other viable trout waters near by I might feel different. *

I do know about the extremely bitter feelings concerning the repealed quality zone. Those feelings are still present in both groups. Another topic another day

Have a good day
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  #99  
Old 02-06-2007, 11:25 AM
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RuningWolf RuningWolf is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

All I apologize for some of the poor word smiting, grammar and spelling, I am busy doing other things and I am answering piece meal (part of a paragraph here and another part latter). As a result some of the thoughts are jumpy and sometimes a little to jumbled to make much sense unless you are very good at reading stream of consciousness writing

I have gone back and edited some of the recent post to make them more coherent. However the length of some of my replies limits the amount that can be edited as well. If you do not understand what I am saying please ask and I will try to clarify as quickly as possiable
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  #100  
Old 02-06-2007, 04:34 PM
RFowler RFowler is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Well, RW, I'm going to have to disagree with you once again.

First of all, I, personally, did not grow up with a trout stream close to my house so I don't think your statements are valid in that regard. That's like saying if you live near some special reg hunting land that the regs shouldn't apply to you because you live near the woods.

On the subject of poor people. My pawpaw and grandmaw on my mothers side were very poor and did a lot of fishing. I did a lot of fishing with them and kind of adopted their attitude for a while. The 'keep everything' attitude. Unfortunately, this is a problem with many fish killers.

Mortality rates. Dang, RW. How can you prove it will be any more of a problem with special regs than it is now. You act as if all the C&R guys are killing these fish while none of the bait guys are. Their methods kill much more fish than C&R fishing. They don't land every fish, and they don't quit fishinig after they limit. Plus, they keep fish.
Fish die as a result of fishing for them, that is a fact we cannot change. There are ways to curtail such things though. Such as barbless hooks. Are the bait people going to go for that. No.


I pointed out before that C&R fisherman are giving up everyting while the C&K crowd are giving up nothing. I do not care what the ratio is. I think your numbers are skewed but even if it is twenty percent, it's still a large user group that should have a voice.
The reason I think the numbers are skewed is because of my personal observations, and the politics that TWRA has to follow. When I used to fish the river frequently, C&R fisherman far outnumbered C&K fisherman by headcount. When I get back up there I'm going to conduct my own survey, and it won't be as general. I think the recent poor fishing on the first few miles will skew the results.

I really don't see how a slot limit of 16-22" fish could hurt anything. Landowners could be exempt from these slot limits but their permits to do so would not be valid on any other part of the river but their own property.

I really wouldn't pull up the economics on this issue. You mention bait shops. I'm thinking more along the lines of hotel, cabin, and campground stays. Retaurants, convenient stores, grocery stores, and sport shops. And all of little stuff inbetween. I completely fail to see how a simple slot limit would effect the economy in the Clinton and Norris area in a negative way. I feel it has the potential to help it. I want it proven otherwise.



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