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  #21  
Old 01-25-2007, 09:19 PM
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Flat Fly n Flat Fly n is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Byron,
From the boat ramp to dam is probably a no sell. *The locals love to fish from the weir and below to MI. *It would be great but a hard sell. *Therefore, just remove all the landowners and make it from the weir to the dam. *Nobody but TVA owns that, and if I am correct, the government, of which you and I are the principle owners of that, well until that gets taken away.

RF... Just email me sometime when your up here. *IF the water is off, we will fish.

Bryon, sorry I could not call today. *I was busy with huh.....helping with some plumbing!

Flat Fly'n
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2007, 12:08 PM
Kingstonian Kingstonian is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Flat, my observation is that on high water, the area immediately below the dam is very popular with bait fishermen, fishing bait on the bottom in the current seams. On low water, there are holes all up and down where bait is fished, sometimes by dozens of people. I think you would get more resistance from the general public from making that area C&R or imposing bait restrictions than if you took Miller Island to Clinton and did the same thing there.

There are areas of the Clinch that are seldom fished (or seldom overfished) due to limited access. Back in the day, this was enough to keep a good population of big fish. I think it may be the supply, rather than the demand, that has changed with the health of the river. If the river gets healthy again, a lot of these problems go away. I understand the Hiwassee is similar in that regard.
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2007, 01:00 PM
Byron Begley Byron Begley is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

A long time ago (in the 80's) we would get the attention of TWRA by going through Trout Unlimited and the Tennessee Conservation League. Our TU Chapter in Nashville was a member. Every year we would have a call for Resolutions. Our TU Chapter would submit the resolutions to TCL. Then at the TCL annual meeting we would defend our resolutions. Ours were always fishing issues and the Chief of Fisheries would sit in on the meetings to hear our resolutions. I always saw the Governor of Tennessee at these meetings and all the TWRA folks from the top down. Eventually I served on the board of TCL (early 90's). TCL was a chapter of the National Wildlife Federation and had full time paid staff. In Kentucky the same group is called the League of Kentucky Sportsmen. Now the name of TCL has changed to the Tennessee Wildlife Federation. I would check with them and see how they work on fishing issues. TCL was formed in the 40's.

www.conservetn.com

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  #24  
Old 01-26-2007, 01:18 PM
Byron Begley Byron Begley is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

I've been on the Tennessee Wildlife Federation website looking around. They have a staff of three people. I also noticed that Trout Unlimited is not mentioned as a supporting organization. I don't know what happened there. I think maybe our State TU Council paid the dues so all the chapters were included years ago. I'll do some more poking around.

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  #25  
Old 01-26-2007, 02:50 PM
Mike_Anderson Mike_Anderson is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Let me start off by saying that I am not a TVA Dam expert, and I donít know anything for certain. There is still a lot of grey areas. Take this post for what it is, hear say.

There are opinions and ideas and all kinds of stories floating around now about Cumberland and Caney. What I think I know is this. The earth and rock foundations that the dams are built on are leaking through caves and holes (think Swiss cheese) in the bedrock. WCD was in worse shape then they thought, so an emergency drawdown has been initiated.

From all the gossip Iíve gathered, everyone seems to agree that at the new level the lake will be able to sustain a cold water fishery below WCD,,,maybe. It was reported a couple of days ago that the US hatchery below WCD is supposed to remain open and in operation while the work is being performed. This is a good sign.
Where we might get into trouble is if we have a very wet spring and there is too much warm water entering the lake and mixing with the colder water below the thermo cline. In order to maintain the lake at a ďsafe levelĒ WCD will have to run full bore to dump all the rainwater. This could lead to warm water being dumped into Cumberland and possibly a fish kill.

Then there is a case where in the summer the DO drops too low and the fish immediately below the dam would suffer. Iíve heard all sorts of scenarios. For example, the level they are shooting for is too low to run the generators. This would mean the sluice would have to provide the water to Cumby. I donít know about WCD but at Caney the sluice gates are higher in the water column then the generator intakes. This means the water is much warmer. The effect is that the DO goes up but so do the water temps. This happened a few years ago on Caney when the first started trying to improve DO there. Now they only run the sluice when there is generation. The mixing of cold water and the higher DO levels from the sluice have been working wonders for the Caney.

About all we can do is trust that TVA is being honest and that they will do all they can to keep the people safe and still provide a fishery. There will be alot of good people finding themselves without an income this summer because of this. I donít even want to think about the consequences of a catastrophic failure at WCD.


If you Google Wolf Creek Dam you can find out everything you want to know about whatís going on there.

Mike


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  #26  
Old 01-26-2007, 07:29 PM
Byron Begley Byron Begley is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Mike,

I read everything on the Corp of Engineers site about Lake Cumberland and the tailwater and it made me sick. I've fished there since I was a kid. I hope the tailwater remains cold. Things don't look good for people trying to make a living on the lake. It looks like they plan to keep it 43' below summer pool for at least a year. But, that's better than what could happen if the dam were to breach.

Rusty,

I e-mailed Mike Butler at Tennessee Wildlife Federation and got a response. They are still engaged with Trout Unlimited but they are revamping the program and they don't have TU on their website yet. So I guess my best advice would be to contact them and get some direction. It would also be a good idea to become a member. After all, they set up what we now call TWRA back in the 1940's. And the Federation is the most powerful wildlife organization in Tennessee. Also, get involved with Trout Unlimited.

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  #27  
Old 01-26-2007, 11:25 PM
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Flat Fly n Flat Fly n is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

King,
The "trophy section" during the 90's was on that section, but got overturned when LUCRO (land users clinch river something or other) threatened to sue and got politicians involved. I am sure that left a boil on TWRA's rump that has not gone away yet, therefore, the upper section to me makes sense. There are not as many quys that run boats at flow as there are waders.

Personally, I think TVA is crazy for allowing any boat traffic in that area during generation. If your motor stalls then you face the most dangerous of all falls in any river which is a man-made fall that has no breaks in it. Well documented by white water rescue resources.

I just want to ask this to TWRA......One mile out of 13, is that too much to ask to protect?

Flat Fly'n



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  #28  
Old 01-27-2007, 12:07 AM
Mike_Anderson Mike_Anderson is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

"If your motor stalls then you face the most dangerous of all falls in any river which is a man-made fall that has no breaks in it. Well documented by white water rescue resources."

Boy you got that right! I once watched a canoe and a kayak go over an old mill (Nices Mill) here in middle TN while the river was out of its banks. The Canoe went first and it immediately flipped over and wrapped around a tree like it was made out of foil. The two guys that were in it barely made it to land. Then the kayak tried it and he was ejected and got stuck in the hydraulic. We watched in horror as it took him under over and over again. I just knew we were going to watch a man die. He got lucky and it finally spit him out. He managed to swim to an island and had to be rescued by the rescue squad in a rubber raft.
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  #29  
Old 01-27-2007, 01:33 AM
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Rockyraccoon Rockyraccoon is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

From a notorius lurker.

You guys have a very interesting thread running here.

First off. Let's all keep our fingers crossed and our prayers up to date for Wolf Creek and more importantly.....all the folks downstream. I mean dang it....It will be totally hanus if we lose the tailwater, but the loss of life downstream would be catastrophic.

Mr. Anderson. I don't beleive I know you, I'm Rocky. Nice to E-meet you. I've checked out your website and I've come to the conclusion that you probably know the river and area fairly well . The hea rsay you've heard really matches up with a lot of the hearsay I've heard and it sounds like the fishery could sustain barring a high rainfall spring and summer. Some of the tailwaters here in E TN seem to do better in low rainfall springs as well. I know a wet spring never seems to help things on the Holston because the cold water reserve is gone before it ever get's hot out. I think the Clinch falls into the same personality as well but on a smaller degree. Maybe the low pool will still have some cold water in it due to the sheer size of Lake C. Anyway, I look forward to hearing anything you'd be willing to share on the topic

Either way you guys are right about the economic impact on the area. The lake fishery and the tailwater brings a huge amount of much needed money to that area. SO it's kindly a double edged sword. You can go broke, or get washed away, and maybe both. So I suppose the fishery will be a small price to pay as long as they can keep dam in tact. So I think we should pray all the rain this spring goes south...(might as well pray it falls in the Hiwassee watershed while were at it ).

OK.....next topic.

You guys are on a good start and have some very interesting ideas concerning the Clinch. TWRA can achieve some great things and I don't see why they couldn't establish some proactive regs for the Clinch. I mean, look what they accomplished on the SH. By closing several miles of river to fishing for a few months a year and establishing some slot limits, TWRA and TVA have created one of the finest wild brown trout fisheries around. I'd have to think the land owners in Sulivan County are much like those in Anderson County.

The key thing here is communicating with the land owners about some proactive regulations. Listen to their thoughts and concerns and maybe they'll consider ours. It's doubtful that TWRA would proceed with any new regs concerning the land between Millers and Hwy 61 without the support of Lucro. I know most of us would love to see some real trophy regs on the Clinch, but at the same time I totally understand the landowners point of view too.

Growing up in TN, I've fished with just about any kind of tackle you could imagine. My papa used to guide fishing trips way back in the history books down on the TN river near Loudon. So I kindly got a good sampler of it all from cane poles and night crawlers to the old electric crank phones . Now, having moved on to become a fly fishing junkie, I can still see the value and desire of taking the kids down to the river, dunking some worms, and maybe frying up some fish.

So the main focus should be finding good common grounds with the folks who own the lands.

Pull out your state regs book. Read the license requirements section. Specifically the parts that read something like this. "no license required for residents of or first cousins on the mothers side kind of writing". Sounds kindly silly to me, but maybe the "special regs" section of the Clinch could read like this" Special regs apply to all anglers not in possesion of a Lucro value card or their 2nd generation great grandkids kids".

Maybe they would be interested in hearing more about progressive slot limits. Slots limits would still allow them to fish by whatever method they wanted, yet restrict them to harvest some of the smaller-ish fish or one of the bigger fish.

In the end, working together with all parties involved will be the best and probably only option for progressive regs on the Clinch. As stated, the upper river could possibly be elegible, yet with the already limited public water, that too could be met with resistance.

As Byron stated, joining a local TU is a good start. But being open and cooperative with the landowners will be the most important role.

The Winter TVA Cooperative coldwater meeting is tomorrow morning at 9:00 in Knoxville. I'll be there and I hope to be hearing some news about Wolf Creek (as the corps usually sends a rep) as well as some good news about the Clinch and the rest of the rivers and streams we call home here in E Tn. It's also a good oppurtunity to talk to all the agencies involved with our fisheries from TWRA to USFS. Maybe some of you guys are going and can voice your concerns and ideas to the powers that be there.

Keep this thread alive and see how much interest it generates because the squeaky wheel occasionally get's some oil. 8-)

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  #30  
Old 01-27-2007, 12:09 PM
RFowler RFowler is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Good points, Michael. Especially the one about landowners being somewhat excluded to special regs. I don't think they'd have much of an impact even if they did harvest fish frequently. It's the hundreds, if not, thousands, that don't live on the river that have most of the impact. But this is where I have a big problem with land owners. Let's say someone like myself purchases a little slither of land on the Clinch and all of the sudden my voice is heard loud and clear over a few thousand others that have been fishing the river MUCH longer than I. I have a problem with that. Just because someone owns a stretch of land beside a resource should not give them special regards to that resource, it's not theirs to bargain with. It belongs to every citizen in this country. I'm sure when you were in construction that you've heard the expression "a dime holding back a dollar". I honestly believe that's what we're dealing with here. What I fear the most with those waters in Tennessee is what has happened to the Chattahoochee in Georgia. Believe me when I say this, if things are not put in place now, the Clinch and other rivers in Tennessee will be in the same shape. These landowners we're talking about here are the same kinds of people that have ruined the fishery on the Hooch. Some just like the view and are complacent when it comes to any damage they may be causing. Wether it be monetary or environmental damage. If those of us that care about these rivers don't start influencing the politics of these resources then these landowners are going to start turning into developers. Do we really want some fat cat developers calling the shots? Mark my words, it hasn't happened yet but it WILL. It's sad but true. When some of these old landowners die their heirs will sell this land off, piece by piece.

Byron,

Thank you. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do at the time other than type some text or send letters. I'm still in a state of suspended animation. Very frustrating.

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