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  #31  
Old 01-27-2007, 02:05 PM
billyspey billyspey is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

gosh if twra would just spend the money on our rivers for fishing as they have on ELK<TURKEY<and DEER [these creatures are everywhere] i don't think we would have a issue.
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  #32  
Old 01-28-2007, 09:01 AM
Kingstonian Kingstonian is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Billy, the revenue generated by big game hunts surely dwarfs what is generated by trout fishing. *There are more licenses, more expensive, and I imagine more people big game hunt than fish. *Still, the difference is that the trout fishery requires routine maintenance, such as stocking. *The deer and turkey are self supporting, and if left alone, the elk will get there at some point. *

I warm water fish, trout fish, and deer hunt. *I don't want competition between these sports. *I think they can work together, and should.
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  #33  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:59 AM
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RuningWolf RuningWolf is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Quote:
Rusty,

I agree with you. *I'm not an expert on Tennessee Law but I believe I'm right on the following statement:

Tennessee has a provision called a Private Act. *Other states may have them too. *But here a State Representative or Senator can ask for a Private Act which exempts his or her district from State Legislation. *So, lets say a group of people ask that fish or hunting laws be changed and for the sake of this conversation lets say they are not living in that district. *TWRA makes the change because they feel it is prudent, good for the resource and for the anglers or hunters. *The people who live in that district don't like it for some reason. *They can ask their State Rep to exclude their district through a private act. *The State Representative gets enough votes to recind(sp) the legislation. *TWRA gets smacked in the face and all the time and energy that they put into the project is wasted. *It's happened before. *Even the threat of a Private Act can change the direction TWRA can move. *Some of you folks know more about this than I do so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Byron *
LUCRO has done stated anything that is not based on science they will enact a private act.

I have not looked at the current TWRA data, but those who have say it is constant with years past.

Keep in mind most of the river bottom is owned by the landowners. The Clinch is a non-navigable river. TVA tried about 4 or 5 years ago to get this status changed however it would not affect ownership of the bottom.

I think TVA owns the bottom and banks from essentially Millers Island up river to the Dam on the right ascending bank,( parking area access side) a lot of the left ascending bank up to at least the weir dam is private.

One of the problems with installing a C and R section in this area is it is the only area with handicap access.

A area that LUCRO has said they would support is a management plan that includes a spawn. TWRA said there ws none. However a TU study in conjunction with TVA was showing there was a definite spawn, that many of us long time fisherman of the river has seen for years.

This study was in its infancy when I left TU, I suspect not much data has been collected the past few years due in part to the flow changes in the river.

These flow changes (from general observations) have changed a lot of variables on the Clinch from fish holding patterns, to silting, to possible invertebrate populations, to the spawn, etc.

I have no problems catching either numbers or size of fish I have for years on the Clinch.

What I have observed is overcrowding in the few public access areas. These areas are fished heavier than they ever have been. This changes fish holding patterns, among other issues.

Some of these issues is the fish get smarter they see the same patterns day in day our, they get to know your fly (I have fished a local caddis and had no looks- then switch to another pattern of the same type caddis fished the same water and could not beat them off).

Other problems false casting spooks the fish (stand on a high point and watch them scatter when someone moves in and spends more time with his fly in the air than on the water.

Believe it or not tippet a change from 5-6-7x can make a major difference. They see it. I have fished the dame fly in the same place within the time frame to change to a smaller and gone from none to some to plenty going 5-6-7.

Change your fly and presentation what worked yesterday may not work today.
Another factor affecting the fishery throughout its entire length is the increased canoeing of the river for recreational purposes, most of these people don’t care about your fishing and you are in their way. Some do and are great, but back to the point as most of the river is flat slow water their passage has an effect on the fish as well, it takes awhile for them to recover from 2-3 nosy boats and people.

The TWRA studies have shown that the people who keep fish have no impact and it is stocked for this as well. They pay just as much for the right to fish as you do, most of them hate the poachers as much or more than you do. TWRA is a cell phone call away and from personal, experience they will respond, if they are unable if you give them enough info they will look for them in the future. (I can tell you factual stories)

One issue TWRA denies impacts the fishery is Stripe Bass. They say there is minimal number of these fish in the river. However IMO based on observation they are very wrong. There is a small herd of them in the river

Catching and eating the fish they catch is one of the major ways children get interested in fishing. They are the future of the sport and that number is declining, we need to do everything we can to encourage then to get involved in the outdoors.

Last TWRA’s fishery biologist is from PA. and has a lot of the same ideas the people there do and has shown some tendency to propose changes just to see what it will do and not based on science


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  #34  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:17 AM
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RuningWolf RuningWolf is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Quote:
Rusty,

I'll have to think about that one for a while. *

I heard some disturbing news about the Cumberland today though I can't back it up. *Evidently there is a problem with the dam. *If what I heard is correct and I understood the information they may have to lower Lake Cumberland to a point 10 feet below winter pool. *That would mean that the water flowing into the tailwater would be warm and it may stay that way for a long time while repairs are made. *If that's true, the tailwater would no longer be a coldwater fishery. *Has anyone heard about this? *Talk about economic impact, not just to the tailwater but to the people trying to make a living on the lake. *I've also heard about new leaks in Center Hill Dam. *Anyone know about that? *These dams are getting old. *I'm concerned!

Byron * *
The leak is from underneath where the concrete meets the bedrock, some of the bedrock has eroded and they are going to fill in with some sort of material like grout, they say the break possibility is not very high and the damage is less sever than they originally thought. They gave a time frame for it being fixed, however I was doing other things and did not catch the entire news article on it.

A news article on it from Fox

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Jan...ousDam,00.html
Feds Fear a Dam Break in Ky. and Tenn. Fearing a dam break that could cause catastrophic flooding in Kentucky and Tennessee, the Army Corps of Engineers began lowering the water level on Lake Cumberland on Monday

The measure was aimed at reducing pressure on the weakened 240-foot-high dam, said Lt. Col. Steven J. Roemhildt, commander of the Corps of Engineers' Nashville office.

"We must take this emergency action to reduce risk to the public and to the dam itself," he said in a statement.

If the Wolf Creek Dam, which is nearly a mile long, were to break, flooding in communities downstream along the Cumberland River could kill people and cause an estimated $3.4 billion in damage, Roemhildt said. Cities along the Cumberland include Nashville, Tenn., whose metro area contains 1.4 million people.

Corps spokesman Bill Peoples said failure of the dam was not imminent. But he said people should have evacuation plans ready in Nashville and other downstream communities, including Burkesville in Kentucky and Celina, Carthage, Clarksville, Gallatin and Hendersonville in Tennessee.

Nashville officials said that they have a plan in place for any flooding but that any threat would be minimized once the lake's level is lowered.

We have re-reviewed some of the plan and addressed specific things that may need to be included if there's a breach in the dam," said Amanda Sluss, a spokeswoman for the city Office of Emergency Management.

The dam, which has a concrete core surrounded by earth, was built near Jamestown in the early 1950s. The lake it holds back was created as part of a federal plan to control floods along the Ohio and Mississippi rivers.

Two recent studies raised questions about the dam's integrity, Roemhildt said.

Water has been seeping under the dam and eroding the limestone on which the concrete rests, he said. He said crews were pumping grout into the ground to counter the erosion.

Reducing the water level could have a major ecological and economic effect as well. Roemhildt said people can expect fish kills because of a rise in water temperature, and boats at marinas could be left high and dry.

Kentucky Commerce Secretary George Ward said as many as 90 percent of the launching ramps will be unusable because they won't reach the water's surface.

Lake Cumberland, about 100 miles southeast of Louisville and one of the nation's largest freshwater reservoirs, is a popular destination for boaters. A thriving houseboat industry has sprung up around the lake, which has more than 1,000 miles of shoreline.

At a marina near Russell Springs, workers spent Monday moving million-dollar houseboats to moorings where they can stay afloat after the water recedes.

"We're kind of at a loss," said Estelee Slusser, who operates the Alligator Dock No. 1 marina. "It has just happened so quickly. We really don't know what to do."

The Army Corps notified local officials and business owners before making the plan public Monday. Slusser said she learned of it Friday.

"We spent the whole day yesterday on the phone with customers, trying to calm them down," she said.


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  #35  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:46 PM
RFowler RFowler is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

I respecfully disagree with a lot of your opinions. I personally don't think technique has a lot to do with it as a whole. Some of us go to extremes when it comes to presentations and matching the hatch.

I used to see huge schools of trout up around Millers Island but I have not seen any of those schools in 2+ years. I disagree that meat fisherman have no impact on these numbers. I saw a guy stringer about 30-40 fish one day below MI, 3 years ago this spring. He had about 4 kids with him and most of the fish were in the range I used to catch up there in big numbers, 14-20". That was just one day, and one guy. It is always brought up when these things are discussed about meat fisherman having just as much right as those of us that mostly C&R. I don't think that is the point here. The point is, the Clinch has changed so we are hoping TWRA has some progressive management plans to help the river return to the great fishing it once had. I find it very hard to swallow when someone tells me that the fish are on to me, but the meat fishermen have no impact. I'm not telling little Johnny that he can't keep fish, I just want to convince him not to keep everything he catches. Rivers have many users, most, if not all, favor the meat fisherman. From an economical standpoint it makes no sense, they should favor everyone. Again, let me repeat this so there is no confusion, I am not against people keeping fish. But I am against people exhausting a resource. It is my opinion that meat fisherman are less likely to understand that there is a limit to the resource. They look at most of these rivers as put and take instead of put and grow, or having a wild population. So, why should other users suffer because of their ignorance, or their overharvesting?

I can't even imagine how big of a stink it would be if landowners suddenly stopped people from using this resource. They may own the riverbed but they don't own the water. That little fact changes everything. Like I tried to point out in my previous posts, land ownership on water is becoming more and more of a privilege, and more people are using these resources. I'm of the opinion that these landowners have a bigger responsibility for these resources than they did 10 years ago. If their responsibilty doesn't change in favor of these resources we enjoy so much, then these discussions will be pointless in the future. Case in point - Coal Creek. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. These people have a responsibility. Why should these landowners have special privileges if they don't care for the resource? They should be cited for their carelessness. What these landowners/developers do, has an impact on all user groups East Tennessee hasn't seen the growth that Atlanta and North Georgia has. Is it ready? Nah. Make these waters the best they can be and then they may receive special attention when it comes to major development. Things such as buffer zones. Buffers in Georgia are laughable. The Chattahoochee will never be what it once was because of carelessness from landowners. They have their view and their deck over the water, though.
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  #36  
Old 01-29-2007, 03:24 PM
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RuningWolf RuningWolf is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

”I used to see huge schools of trout up around Millers Island but I have not seen any of those schools in 2+ years.

TVA’s release schedule has also affected where they hold as the release are at different times and different amounts then what they where 3 years ago. (I have daily records of the past 30 years the change is phenomenal) One needs to also consider how they moved around at different times of the day due to sum position,, depth of the water etc. Another factor is the decline of invertebrates in parts of the river, they move once the learn to be more of a wild fish to where the food is.

Increased traffic has a tremendous impact on holding patterns as well. You see more and more fisherman wading through where schools of fish hold. *


‘ I disagree that meat fisherman have no impact on these numbers. “

The studies disagree with you, are you aware of exactly how many fish are released in two spots on that river per a given period of time? Check with TWRA and calculate how many are kept vs the amount released it is a hefty ration.

“ I saw a guy stringer about 30-40 fish one day below MI, 3 years ago this spring. “

Did you call the Poaching Hotline 1-800-831-1174? If not you failed in part of your civic responsibility IMO. As I said many bait fisherman are against poaching as well. Some have approached me when they see it and ask to use my cell phone of have me call. Note I have seen fly fisherman poach as well.

“The Clinch has changed so we are hoping TWRA has some progressive management plans to help the river return to the great fishing it once had. “

“I personally don't think technique has a lot to do with it as a whole. *Some of us go to extremes when it comes to presentations and matching the hatch. *


As I said I have fished and had no problems. In fact I have fished the river since the mid 60’s and several years I fish it more than 100 days a year (again I have records. Flys, water quality, depth, water temp, aquatics observed, air temp, etc.) It is amazing how it has changed over the years

“ I find it very hard to swallow when someone tells me that the fish are on to me, but the meat fishermen have no impact. “

Whatever you wish to believe, I normally catch fish when others are not who are fishing near me. Wonder what that means?

“I can't even imagine how big of a stink it would be if landowners suddenly stopped people from using this resource.”

You can float it but I have seen people thrown off land and made to move off people’s property (in the river), most of it was do to ill manners on their part. They are tired of people they consider elitist ____ telling them what is right and what is not. They did support the scientific studies included getting out and helping do some of the actual work with TWRA. They supported the studies CRCTU and TVA was doing and where willing if a spawn was proven to support protection of it. You give thee folks scientific evidence and it will go along way towards enlisting their support. Give them a sob story there is no fish (and they know better – after all they are aware of what is in their back yard, the success the people who sue their land to access the river has etc) and you will get shown the door. As I said LUCRO will get a special act passed if any attempt is made to enact changes without evidence based on science they are needed. Some are so annoyed at some of the suggestions they want the Clinch to become a bait fishery only.

Case in point - Coal Creek. *I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. *These people have a responsibility. *Why should these landowners have special privileges if they don't care for the resource? The city of lake City needs a new waste treatment plant but cannot afford one yet.

What is your bone of contention here? There are numerous problems in the Coal Creek Watershed? From mining, to sewage.

What about Cane Creek ? Agriculture run off. BMP’s not practiced by most landowners?

What about Clear Creek? Cars running though creek crossing washing pollutants off.

Many of the landowners have been approached about doing similar projects to the Scruggs-Happney farm work. The permit process for some is in the mill the last I heard.
The buffer zone has been floated. Most residents are against it as they do not like more strangers having more means to access their property. In this day and time who can blame them.

I have talked to residents who are tired of the litter, people thinking their property is peoples bathrooms (I know of two who have out houses one had some one leave his human waste on his picnic table rather than walk 50 foot to the outhouse, another has had his port john turned over into the spring above the jail at least twice), they have had their fences tore down an cattle gotten out, property and equipment vandalized, etc. I don’t blame them. Most of them if people would come to them and talk to them would give access freely. Courtesy goes a long way with them. * *

Since I have also seen TU's name thrown about in here let me add

1st you are aware that according to TU the only way they are to support any regulations is based on science? If I still had the document on my hard drive I would give it to you. It is still on their site as I reread it there a couple weeks ago.

2nd the Chapter whose home waters is the Clinch has issued a letter and reaffirmed it recently http://www.crctu.com/ScruggsHappney/...20Happney.html
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  #37  
Old 01-29-2007, 04:36 PM
RFowler RFowler is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Well, you seem to have all the answers there, RW. Ever put any of it to use? Are you not a member of TU anymore? I have reasons why I'm not there doing anything at the time. I guess since you didn't bring it up, you don't agree with me about landowners having a bigger responsibility nowdays? They can just do as they please, after all, it's their land. Is that your attitude? You've been fishing the river for 60 years and you have seen a lot of changes. Nah, not really. Wait until the real development comes. I don't know the Clinch as well as you, from what you have written there's probably few who do. But you'd be foolish not to heed others advice on the subject of buffers and developement. I don't want some developer or some nonfishing landowner in a subdivide telling me what I can and cannot do on that river. Maybe you do. Maybe you don't think it will ever come to that? It may not threaten you but it does me and future generations. Consider yourself blessed for having the river to yourself for so many years!

"Whatever you believe, I normally catch fish when others are not who are fishing near me. Wonder what that means?"

Does the water part when you walk to shore, too? I guess that means they are extremely poor fishermen. Just kidding there, RW, but this aint no flyfishing p'ing contest.

Just what about my views don't you agree with? More water (you think they're pumping water now, just wait until big growth hits), didymo, pressure, I feel is the reason for some of the changes. I guess you disagree.

I don't have much time or I would address more in you reply but I will this one. I will later.

"Did you call the Poaching Hotline 1-800-831-1174? If not you failed in part of your civic responsibility IMO. As I said many bait fisherman are against poaching as well. Some have approached me when they see it and ask to use my cell phone of have me call. Note I have seen fly fisherman poach as well."

As far as I know they weren't exceeding their limits. If you will read a little closer, I said he had 4 kids with him. If meat fishermen have no impact on fish populations then why does C&R or slot water exist anywhere?
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  #38  
Old 01-29-2007, 08:13 PM
RFowler RFowler is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

RW,

Please don't take me too personal and I promise I will do the same concerning you. Your knowledge on the Clinch is very important to me and very useful for any future changes that may take place. I think all of us here want the river to be the best it can be and I personally want to work toward that goal. My intentions on this thread was to kind of spark up a good relationship with the folks at TWRA. I want to work with them closely to make progress. Sorry for any bickering. It's kind of pointless, you know. Kind of like choir members arguing about what song to sing.

I'm passionate about that river and others in Tennessee, and I see you are just as passionate, yourself. Some of my ideas come from talking to people that have fished the Chattahoochee for years. From what I've been told, the 'hooch has suffered very much from the past 15-20 years. Trout used to thrive where they now have a DH. What is the cuplrit? Development. That's what scares me about landowners. Let taxes start going up on these big landowners and the vulchers will move in. Please realize that some regs and practices are very dated. I have ideas that will help these people keep their land but they have to give something back. I feel that a standard needs to be put in place before all of this stuff starts happening. This is a very crowded world we live in now. If we don't bird dog this stuff I fear the same thing will happen up there.

Cheers!
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  #39  
Old 01-29-2007, 10:47 PM
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RuningWolf RuningWolf is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Don’t take it I was trying to be a know it all. I am trying to give you a perspective from what I have seen, looked into etc over many years.

A few points of note. And excuse me if it is more rambling than in a coherent order and less than coherent sentences. I wanted to respond before I got busy and I do not have time for checking everything.

Between 250,000 and 350,000 cacheable size trout are released in the Clinch each year. This is not counting trout fry that is raised at the hatchery in Clinton and released in the river, the local school project that relases several thousand fry or the natural spawn that occurs. That is a sizable number when on considers the tail water is ~13 miles long and only about 4 miles of it has public access. *

I don’t fish much at Milers island anymore. I don’t enjoy combat fishing. I fish mostly midriver to about a mile above Hwy 61 Bridge. However I do fish on occasion around Millers Island through the weekdays – less people more fun.

I started out as you wanting special regs, I got involved with TU and met people in LUCRO others in TWRA, TVA, etc. I did not know. I studied the studies they had done and asked a lot of questions. It became apparent from the studies the river needed no special regs. There was nothing wrong with it. From personal experience of over 40 years of fishing it, the river has always had cycles as do most rivers. From contacts and fishing other regions (Pa., N.C., Ky, Maine, Ark. Etc) I have seen some of what some other ideas do. They have both positive and negative affects. From what I read of the last shocking surveys the numbers are still there on the Clinch hence from it and first hand observations it seems other factors are at play. That is why I posted some of the info to you so you might consider. The F&S article some are talking about here is very applicable to the Clinch as well.

Another thing to consider in declining numbers in a area is the death from C&R fishing, some controlled studies in ideal situations has the number at around 10%, that is before they are played excessively on some of the lighter rods more people are using, kept out of water *for photos or hey look here and so on all of which increases mortality rates greatly.

Most of the landowners on the river consider this a valuable resource and treat it as such. There are a few who do not but lets not go there now. Many want to do what was done at the Scruggs farm. Some of this is being done in the Coal Creek (Are you aware trout spawn in Coal Creek in spite of the water qualty problems?) area as well. We could have another good discussion about what is wrong there.

I left TU in the state of Tenn in protest do to what I thought was ignoring our responsibility to the fisheries, chapter and state council. That in its self is a long story which I will not discus on a public forum. There is to much room for he said, she said bull crap and that would not be appropriate

Most of LUCRO is aware of the above. Don’t sell them short. When the studies show a change is needed a reasonable approach, which includes them will build a coalition that can go to TWRA with a consensus. That is something the CRCTU had going when I left and I hear there is still good contact between the two groups.

As another note some other observations a lot of time what is hatching is not what the fish are eating. Now don’t expect me to tell you all I have learned over the years or which rocks to try to own. And no the water does not part, I just walk on it. (Being a smart butt) Feel free to PM me if you have some questions you would like answered. I check it from time to time. Perhaps somewhere down the road we can meet and go fishing on the Clinch together
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  #40  
Old 01-29-2007, 11:00 PM
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Rockyraccoon Rockyraccoon is offline
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Default Re: Tennessee Trout Mgmt Plan

Hey there RW,

That going fishing sometime thing has eluded us for a long time now. Maybe this spring will be the time. Oh yea, your still retired.....right? Anyway, thanks for your insight. Sounds like LUCRO will be very willing to change anything as long as the science books say it will be a positive change. That's really good to hear. Hope all is well with you and the family.
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